Police that can’t be trusted

Whitewavemark2

My point about the Clapham Common vigil is that the police need not to attend. There was nothing going on that should have attracted a police presence.

Wrong.
They had to be there, as there were no large gatherings allowed at that time.
A few ( note, the few) women who were arrested were there to cause trouble and rabble rouse the crowd.One had a loudhailer for goodness sake!

The police did need to attend because of covid restrictions prohibiting large gatherings. There wouldn't have been an issue if people had simply laid flowers and lit candles which is what a vigil is for, and then departed.

Waving placards and goading the police officers who were there was disrespectful to the memory of the victim and her family.

Since 2009 15 serving police officers and former police officers have been charged and convicted of murder, all as far as I can make out were of either their wives/ girlfriends/ partners, and in one case, his own Mother.Not random victims abducted and murdered.
There are 44,600 serving in the Met and around 153,000 in the UK ( full time serving officers.)

The police service does have to do all it can to protect the trust needed by the general public but there are bad apples in every profession and walk of life that often are impossible to predict before an event happens.
The police face dangers and difficult situations on a daily basis, and deal with the worst sort of offenders and yet are expected to do all that without much respect from the public.
Only when a member of the public actually needs the help of the police does that happen.I am constantly amazed that anyone wants to do this job ( these days!)

lemongrove

Would anyone distrust and avoid all builders because of Fred West? Am sure that some builders have committed rape and murder whitewave of their partners/ wives/ girlfriends etc.
Trying to make a case to distrust the police is very wrong in my view.

I’m not making a case to distrust the police, but I am making a case that the police need to get their house in order big time, before their trust can be earned.

My point about the Clapham Common vigil is that the police need not to attend. There was nothing going on that should have attracted a police presence.

But my point is that a police officer committing sexual acts on women without active consent isn’t is it?

In fact it is alarmingly high.

And the murder rate seems higher than in the general population.

There wasnt what appear to be systematic failings in the building trade.

Would anyone distrust and avoid all builders because of Fred West? Am sure that some builders have committed rape and murder whitewave of their partners/ wives/ girlfriends etc.
Trying to make a case to distrust the police is very wrong in my view.

A serving police officer abducting a complete stranger and raping and murdering her is a very unusual case.

My point Whitewavemark is that photo taken out of context portrays the police as being un necessarily heavy handed which IMO they weren't.

So, let's keep the discussion sensible and realistic and not try to portray the police in general as behaving inappropriately where women are concerned. I left nothing "in the air". The woman in that photo's behaviour was outrageous and she was detained by the police.

"The vigil and lawful protest was totally peaceful" really!! well you and I must have watched totally different footage of the event. It was taken over by un peaceful protesters and the large number of police present was because of the pandemic and the fact that it had been requested that large crowds didn't gather.

So, to be clear IMO that particular woman's goading, disrespectful and aggressive behaviour toward the police resulted in her being detained.

Of course you are free to disagree just as I am free to give my opinion.

I agree lemongrove "This case is highly unusual and there is absolutely no need to distrust the police en mass".

He is by no means the only rotten apple though.

Since 2009 at least 15 police officers have been convicted of murder.

Over the past 2 years 125 women, partners of a police officer has alleged abuse either to herself or children. How many have not reported abuse knowing that if they dial 999 she will be talking to her abusers mates?

Former deputy assistant commissioner David Gilbertson has warned of an epidemic of hidden violence , including cases where officers in domestic violence units “ actively search for vulnerable women for sexual gratification, and in other cases in order to gain access to these vulnerable women’s children for sexual purposes”

One officer was recently dismissed for for taking advantage of a rape victim whose case he was investigating.

Kate Wilson, an environmental activist was duped into sexual relationships by an undercover police officer.
She has since won a landmark human rights case against the Met.

Heaven knows how many more have gone unreported.

So no it isn’t as unusual as we would like to think.

Rosie51

winterwhite

I beg your pardon, Rosie if I have got something wrong re off duty police officers, but I did say 'except in an emergency". You use the expression 'when something goes down' which I take to mean some kind of emergency, but an empty-handed woman walking along would surely not have been any kind of emergency.

Sorry winterwhite I did type a longish reply to you that has disappeared into the ether. I'll try again. No of course Sarah Everard was not an emergency. Couzens had no business even talking to her, let alone arresting her. He is a despicable man who went looking for a victim and found poor Sarah. He abused his position and brought shame on his profession.
I didn't explain myself well. When my son started his Met training he was told he was never 'off duty'. One example he was given was that if he was out socially in a pub for instance. If a fight broke out and he didn't intervene and police were called and identified him as police (met had to always carry their warrant card) then he could be on a disciplinary. Not a situation that most of us would regard as an emergency.
I admit I get upset when there's blanket condemnation of the police (not you I hasten to add), not improved because my son was beaten quite badly while on duty and the offender only got a 'telling off' from the judge. Nobody knows better than good police like my son what the rotten apples do, and he wants them out as much as anyone. It's up to the senior ranks to act on the reports given to them by other officers. Sadly they can be slow to do so.

That’s quite right rosie in fact police can lose their job if they don’t intervene when off duty and a crime takes place.
There is no ‘choosing to ignore it’ for them.

Blossoming

Oldwoman70

I think everyone is shocked and disgusted by this case - however, we must also bear in mind that the majority of police officers can be trusted and are not a danger to women. It is easy to tar them all with the same brush when in reality they are as disgusted by his actions as everyone else.

Maybe so, but how are we supposed to know which ones can be trusted? I will continue to beware.

I think that Oldwoman70 is spot on.

Blossoming do you trust your / or other GP’s? If so, what about Harold Shipman?
Do you trust nurses when in hospital? If so what about the cases of nurses who kill patients on the ward.
Would you damn all firefighters if one was a murderer/rapist?
This case is highly unusual and there is absolutely no need to distrust the police ‘en masse’.

I would like to clear any suggestion that the young woman in the picture was in any way to blame as sort of left in the air by smileless

Patsy Stevenson was attending a vigil on Clapham Common along with many, many other women along with people like The Duchess of Cambridge who laid flowers in Sarah’s memory. The vigil and lawful protest was totally peaceful.

If anyone looks at the footage, they will be astounded at the high numbers of police presence, totally unnecessary, given the behaviour of the women.

Stevenson, put down a candle and flowers for Sarah.

winterwhite

I beg your pardon, Rosie if I have got something wrong re off duty police officers, but I did say 'except in an emergency". You use the expression 'when something goes down' which I take to mean some kind of emergency, but an empty-handed woman walking along would surely not have been any kind of emergency.

Sorry winterwhite I did type a longish reply to you that has disappeared into the ether. I'll try again. No of course Sarah Everard was not an emergency. Couzens had no business even talking to her, let alone arresting her. He is a despicable man who went looking for a victim and found poor Sarah. He abused his position and brought shame on his profession.
I didn't explain myself well. When my son started his Met training he was told he was never 'off duty'. One example he was given was that if he was out socially in a pub for instance. If a fight broke out and he didn't intervene and police were called and identified him as police (met had to always carry their warrant card) then he could be on a disciplinary. Not a situation that most of us would regard as an emergency.
I admit I get upset when there's blanket condemnation of the police (not you I hasten to add), not improved because my son was beaten quite badly while on duty and the offender only got a 'telling off' from the judge. Nobody knows better than good police like my son what the rotten apples do, and he wants them out as much as anyone. It's up to the senior ranks to act on the reports given to them by other officers. Sadly they can be slow to do so.

Of course if a police man on his own handcuffed you you wouldn’t have any choice about getting in the car would you ?She didn’t stand a chance if she’d have run he d have caught her ?
If I hear the phrase ‘lessons will be learned’ one more time I ll scream I think
The biggest clue was the fact that he was known by the nickname ‘the rapist’ and some of his colleagues knew he flashed etc so there is far more to this than one rogue bad Apple There seem to be a lot of rogue bad apples just that he was the worst

Smileless2012

I do remember that photo Whitewavemark and I also remember how she was behaving before she was wrestled to the ground. Hardly the behaviour you'd expect to see at what was supposed to be a vigil.

And your point?

I do remember that photo Whitewavemark and I also remember how she was behaving before she was wrestled to the ground. Hardly the behaviour you'd expect to see at what was supposed to be a vigil.

I think the advice being given is reasonable. None of us I'm sure would get into an unmarked 'police' car after this tragic case, even if we would have done so before.

Surely any officer would appreciate why a woman on her own would be extremely cautious knowing what we know now. We have to do all we can to keep ourselves safe.

I don't agree that it's victim blaming. Lessons will be learned and it's a terrible tragedy that this beautiful young woman lost her life in order for this to happen.

when you go to drive through McDonalds you have to look up to the window where you order then collect your food! as his food was handed down to him he was seen to have no trousers on....hence the drive through., . could hardly walk in and order could he. The woman reported it to boss and police, then found out from other young staff he was a regular doing same but they didn't report him, only talking about him to other staff. he was never charged which is the disgrace.

I know, I saw this earlier. I thought Mcdonalds would have cameras tbh of the drive thru and outside areas for security reasons.

How vile though

Just 3 days before Sarah was murdered police were handed CCTV of him exposing himself.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10048991/Police-KNEW-Wayne-Couzens-accused-flashing-failed-identify-Met-officer.html

No one thinks that all male police officers are misogynist I'm sure.

What I find chilling in all of this is the reports of the extreme laddish/blokeish culture that is apparently carried too far in some police units. Eradicating this, where it exists, shouldn't be left to women

That should read made me a bit jaded

I agree Rosie, a bad apple can be found anywhere. I was concerned to hear that Couzens was a member of a WhatsApp group with other officers, where inappropriate remarks were made/offensive material shared. I understand they are being investigated and await the outcome of that and how many there were - also details of what will happen to those who failed to report the indecent exposure, reporting of which might have saved Sarah. I still have confidence in the police but want to see that this bunch of bad apples are properly dealt with. I very much doubt they are the only ones though. Such people will always exist everywhere.