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Police that can’t be trusted

(204 Posts)
nanna8 Fri 01-Oct-21 12:16:22

How totally disgusting that a policeman should murder a young woman and what a disgusting response from the met. How dare they ask people to check on whether an officer is legit? Not the responsibility of the public but theirs and theirs alone. They need to sack the bosses and that is what would have happened here. It makes me sick to think of how they knew beforehand that this creature had prior convictions.

lemsip Fri 01-Oct-21 12:21:40

nanna8 he had no prior convictions! that is the problem. Plenty of allegations and and reports of indecent exposure but never charged and convicted.

MaizieD Fri 01-Oct-21 12:22:13

People might not be aware of what advice the police have given

Here it is from the Met Police statement:

Start

What to do if you have concerns an officer is threat to you / How do you prove an officer is genuine?

We completely hear the legitimate concerns being raised and we know women are worried. All our officers are concerned about the impact of these horrific crimes on trust in the police and we want to do all we can to rebuild that trust.

It is unusual for a single plain clothes police officer to engage with anyone in London. If that does happen, and it may do for various reasons, in instances where the officer is seeking to arrest you, you should then expect to see other officers arrive shortly afterwards.

However, if that doesn’t happen and you do find yourself in an interaction with a sole police officer and you are on your own, it is entirely reasonable for you to seek further reassurance of that officer’s identity and intentions.

Our advice is to ask some very searching questions of that officer:

Where are your colleagues?
Where have you come from?
Why are you here?
Exactly why are you stopping or talking to me?
Try to seek some independent verification of what they say, if they have a radio ask to hear the voice of the operator, even ask to speak through the radio to the operator to say who you are and for them to verify you are with a genuine officer, acting legitimately.

All officers will, of course, know about this case and will be expecting in an interaction like that - rare as it may be - that members of the public may be understandably concerned and more distrusting than they previously would have been, and should and will expect to be asked more questions.

If after all of that you feel in real and imminent danger and you do not believe the officer is who they say they are, for whatever reason, then I would say you must seek assistance - shouting out to a passer-by, running into a house, knocking on a door, waving a bus down or if you are in the position to do so calling 999.

End

news.met.police.uk/news/metropolitan-police-our-response-to-issues-raised-by-the-crimes-of-wayne-couzens-434739

I think it's laughable, completely unworkable and wouldn't have saved Sarah had she tried it...

grannyqueenie Fri 01-Oct-21 12:37:41

Absolutely MazieD who on earth would be able to think quickly enough to do any of these things in what is already a stressful and frightening situation? It just sounds like another way of victim blaming/shaming to me. The Met police should be ashamed of themselves for trying to shift blame and responsibility onto those who have done nothing wrong.

MaizieD Fri 01-Oct-21 12:40:46

BTW Lawyer David Allen Green has a blog post about what nonsense this 'advice is:

davidallengreen.com/2021/10/why-the-advice-of-the-metropolitan-police-that-those-concerned-by-wrongful-arrest-wave-down-a-bus-is-besides-the-point/

Oldwoman70 Fri 01-Oct-21 12:41:00

I think everyone is shocked and disgusted by this case - however, we must also bear in mind that the majority of police officers can be trusted and are not a danger to women. It is easy to tar them all with the same brush when in reality they are as disgusted by his actions as everyone else.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 01-Oct-21 12:42:40

Remember this? She was in the vigil for Sarah.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 01-Oct-21 12:45:48

Run away advised a woman police officer.

Didn’t work for Charles de Menzies did it?

He got shot dead.

M0nica Fri 01-Oct-21 12:47:42

My grandmother never trusted the police. She lived and worked in Bermondsey and was an unofficial socialworker in her community, helping parents when their teenage and younger son were picked up by the police. That was at the beginning of the last century.

JaneJudge Fri 01-Oct-21 12:52:22

I didn't think there was any evidence to suggest she didn't think he was legitimate? (correct me if I am wrong) so that advice is useless, surely? As I said on the other thread, I would have got in the car too. We are taught to follow rules and authority so I think the police need to come up with a solution themselves so that this doesn't happen again. The blame/solution shouldn't lie in the hands of innocent women going about their business.

MaizieD Fri 01-Oct-21 12:58:52

I would have got into that car, too.

Despite having led a fairly blameless life (well, one or two speeding fines) I have had quite a lot of dealings with the police over the past two decades. I've never found them anything but polite and helpful. I would have no reason not to trust a police officer. But I am absolutely aware that that is not everyone's experience.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 01-Oct-21 13:12:41

MaizieD

I would have got into that car, too.

Despite having led a fairly blameless life (well, one or two speeding fines) I have had quite a lot of dealings with the police over the past two decades. I've never found them anything but polite and helpful. I would have no reason not to trust a police officer. But I am absolutely aware that that is not everyone's experience.

I don’t think your experience would have been similar if you were black or perhaps on a protest or had been unfortunate enough to have been assaulted etc.

It is astounding the sexism and racism that abounds as well as the refusal to take seriously such assaults etc.

sodapop Fri 01-Oct-21 13:18:50

Absolutely ridiculous advice from the Met. Once again putting the onus on women whilst abdicating their own responsibility.
Why did colleagues not report incidents and concerns about Couzens
Why were complaints from members of the public not followed up
There appears to be an ethos of misogyny and abuse of power not just in the Met but in other forces as well.
Of course there are many many excellent police officers but there needs to be someone leading from the top and this is not happening.

MerylStreep Fri 01-Oct-21 13:21:56

What hope is there 😟

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10048901/Bristol-police-officer-sent-100-flirtatious-inappropriate-messages-woman.html

chris8888 Fri 01-Oct-21 13:24:21

I think everyone should be taught their rights in school. It is awful that in this country many people don`t know that a lone policeman can`t handcuff and arrest a lone female on a `breaking covid restrictions` charge.
Poor woman, poor family.

winterwhite Fri 01-Oct-21 13:27:20

Depends what reason he gave for saying she'd breached covid regulations. And handcuffing seems a wholly disproportionate approach. If it happened as reported I think I'd have shouted, kicked up a colossal fuss and drawn attention to myself for those reasons.
I didn't know that 'off duty' policemen not in uniform were allowed to approach and arrest people except in an emergency. That could surely be stopped straightaway.

MaizieD Fri 01-Oct-21 13:28:02

Whitewavemark2

MaizieD

I would have got into that car, too.

Despite having led a fairly blameless life (well, one or two speeding fines) I have had quite a lot of dealings with the police over the past two decades. I've never found them anything but polite and helpful. I would have no reason not to trust a police officer. But I am absolutely aware that that is not everyone's experience.

I don’t think your experience would have been similar if you were black or perhaps on a protest or had been unfortunate enough to have been assaulted etc.

It is astounding the sexism and racism that abounds as well as the refusal to take seriously such assaults etc.

I am aware, Wwmk2. I said I was.

I think I was trying to say that an 'ordinary' law abiding citizen would have no particular cause to distrust a police officer.
Poor Sarah didn't fall into any of the categories you mention.

Whitewavemark2 Fri 01-Oct-21 13:32:13

Which makes it even worse I suppose

Blossoming Fri 01-Oct-21 13:35:33

Oldwoman70

I think everyone is shocked and disgusted by this case - however, we must also bear in mind that the majority of police officers can be trusted and are not a danger to women. It is easy to tar them all with the same brush when in reality they are as disgusted by his actions as everyone else.

Maybe so, but how are we supposed to know which ones can be trusted? I will continue to beware.

Hetty58 Fri 01-Oct-21 13:38:03

Police are just people - so I'd never trust them 100%, as there's always one bad apple in the cart, anywhere. I'd never get into a car with a stranger. Police don't ever handcuff somebody and take them away single-handedly.

Mollygo Fri 01-Oct-21 13:42:28

I wouldn’t have got in the car without asking questions anyway, but wonder whether that would have helped in this case. I’ve watched enough police programs to know that resisting arrest automatically means handcuffs. I wouldn’t even get in a car with a policewoman, because who knows?

Kim19 Fri 01-Oct-21 14:13:02

Think the new 'official' guideline as to what a citizen should now do in these circumstances are both impractical and unrealistic.

Scones Fri 01-Oct-21 14:55:07

I can't understand how Couzens, whilst off duty was still in possession of all his police paraphernalia. Why do off duty officers need their card, handcuffs, police belt etc??

Surely leaving all this stuff at the station would mean police staff with ill intent wouldn't have the kit on them to lead people to believe they were legitimate.

You can also buy used police uniforms and used police cars still in their police livery on Ebay. Surely this can't be right??
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165088228238?hash=item267006738e:g:ApUAAOSwAeJhJcVh

Lucca Fri 01-Oct-21 14:56:12

How do we know he arrested her for breaking Covid regulations by the way ? I’m probably being thick

Galaxy Fri 01-Oct-21 14:58:34

It's been reported in the press Lucca.