Brexit is dead, it is no more, it has ceased to be - because it has happened. We have withdrawn from the European Union

MaizieD Not funny. That people with different levels of education vote differently is a fact. There is no evidence that this reflects their level of intelligence, especially in age groups where post 16 education was far less common when they were at that age.

MaizieD

Well, all this agreement is lovely, but we'll have the Leave voters down on us complaining that we're saying they're thick...

It happened every time the statistics were cited just after the referendum.

I saw a lecture by Professor Danny Dorling on youtube recently. It was from autumn 2019, I think. Certainly pre 2019 GE. Anyway, he has really drilled down into the figures and he found that, contrary to the perception that the 'left behinds' in the North were the largest numbers of Leave voters it was in fact the elderly southern middle classes who comprised the largest number of leave voters. Which I thought was really interesting as I can't exactly understand their motivation.

Sorry, Pippa, wandering again...

Again MaizieD, are you referring to England?

It certainly wasn’t elderly southern middle class in Wales - the Labour voters in south and northeast Wales would be appalled by that description- and as for thinking they’re thick....?

It’s great that we have a self appointed spokesperson for “all leave voters with degrees and without”. No need for anyone else to comment.

Not at all MaizieD and I think I probably speak for all us Leave voters who have a degree and a good profession, and all those who don’t when I say ‘That’s ok, say and think whatever you like if it comforts you from being torn away from the EU’
( it’s the least we can do, as we are happy and you apparently are not.)?

Well, all this agreement is lovely, but we'll have the Leave voters down on us complaining that we're saying they're thick...

It happened every time the statistics were cited just after the referendum.

I saw a lecture by Professor Danny Dorling on youtube recently. It was from autumn 2019, I think. Certainly pre 2019 GE. Anyway, he has really drilled down into the figures and he found that, contrary to the perception that the 'left behinds' in the North were the largest numbers of Leave voters it was in fact the elderly southern middle classes who comprised the largest number of leave voters. Which I thought was really interesting as I can't exactly understand their motivation.

Sorry, Pippa, wandering again...

Varian I read your last post back to front. We are in agreement.

Whitewavemark2

That’s right I think, my mother was appalled at the leave vote. She was 98 at the time of the vote.

Mine too Whitewave. She voted remain. She was 96 at the time.

Varian that surprises me. I have only come across one person in that age bracket who voted for Brexit, the rest are enthusiastic remainers. Almost all are graduates or equivalent

varian

However the well educated 60-75s voted overwhelmingly for Remain.

That is also true.

However the well educated 60-75s voted overwhelmingly for Remain.

That’s right I think, my mother was appalled at the leave vote. She was 98 at the time of the vote.

However, among the very elderly, those who remembered WW2, they were far more likely to vote remain than those 75 and under. blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/04/05/britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/

The older Brexiters were the 60-75 age group.

So, back to moving forward and away from talking about Brexit, which is, believe it or not, what this thread was about.

Most interesting this week (other than thinking Johnson looks ill in pictures) were the polls. Polling companies this week have Labour either level or ahead of the Conservatives. What would normally come as a suprise to us all is that today's Daily Mail they led with the most damaging of these polls. It showed Labour on 40% and the Tories on 34% - a six-point lead for Labour. Whether we believe that lead, whether we believe the pollster is reliable or not, using this poll says so much about the Mail's view of Johnson. The YouGov poll had them level; they could have chosen that. Choosing the worst isn't an accident. So it could be that this Tory-supporting paper believes it's time for Johnson to go if the Tories are to have a chance of winning the next election.

Last week the Express ran a negative Johnson headline; I think the Times did too. I wonder if any more of the right-wing press have decided he has run his course? I have to say I agree and a campaign by the right-wing press cannot be a bad thing. Add this to the backlash from the new intake and those he dismissed as he came to power and I think we will probably see those aiming for the top job putting themselves forward very soon.

Polls can change but I do think we live in interesting times.

Statistically, the largest vote for Leave came from the 60+ age group and, again, statistically, the largest vote for Leave came from tory voters. (LP voters = 66% Remain) MaizieD

I suspect you meant England above? In Wales only 5 counties voted Remain - the majority were Labour through and through!

lemongrove

Also ( has to be said Pippa) that all this ‘voting against the wishes of our children and grandchildren’ stuff is simply emotional rhetoric.Those who voted for Brexit ( another point to be made) came from all political sides, and when it came to the GE many voted for the Conservatives to complete the Brexit process going and to keep Corbyn out.

Statistically, the largest vote for Leave came from the 60+ age group and, again, statistically, the largest vote for Leave came from tory voters. (LP voters = 66% Remain)

So yes, it was cross ages and cross political allegiances but predominantly old and predominantly tory.

It isn't as clear cut as you are trying to make it look, lemon.

Also ( has to be said Pippa) that all this ‘voting against the wishes of our children and grandchildren’ stuff is simply emotional rhetoric.Those who voted for Brexit ( another point to be made) came from all political sides, and when it came to the GE many voted for the Conservatives to complete the Brexit process going and to keep Corbyn out.

Something to ponder

Since Monica has never been a Conservative voter Pippa
Seems you have got that dead wrong.Add to that .....Monica has said on quite a few threads that she voted to remain in the EU.

all the confident assertions about returning to or near the arms of the EU bloc in the future from a few posters will need to be seen to be believed.

The fact that GN members are not Corbynistas, how quickly so many turned coats, ... M0nica Fri 12-Nov-21 21:37:55

I don't think anyone is a turncoat M0nica. What Corbyn said was interesting. You can find someone interesting without agreeing with all he said. Why should we ignore a politician because some on here have an obsession with Marxism? The language used here, by the right/far-right confirms, for me, the arrogance coming from that side of politics.

Both here and in the wider political world, those backing a far-right government seem to think it is okay to believe that "what I believe becomes a truth". One example is "well at least we don't have Corbyn" remarks. Who knows what would have happened under that government? I am not of the far-left. However, could a left-wing government have made things worse than this far-right government has done? Yes, it is that bad.

And on this forum, we have seen the I'm always "right" - who twice backed the right against our children and grandchildren's wishes. And they think it is okay to call those who don't agree with them "unpatriotic"! Perhaps you would like those who don't swear allegiance to wear a red rose so you can pick them out? There are some, I'm sure, who agree with a far-left way of thinking as you and others tend further right than most. I'm afraid that doesn't make anyone, in any way, superior. I imagine we all move around a bit when discussing different areas of politics. Most of us feel more strongly about some things and less about others.

I know I am getting to the stage where it is not just "what good has come out of Brexit, but "what good has come out of the government". And there is worse to come with them in power, it seems. So I will still be listening to what ALL politicians have to say and so, I expect, will the people you call "turncoats".

What we have now isn’t working, so that isn’t possible

Kali2

If Johnson triggers Art 16 and unleashes a full Trade War with EU (who btw control all the imports and exports) and The Deal is cancelled and we fall onto WTO Rules (and I think anyone who thinks that would be fine really do have to spend some time understand who WTO is and what the rules are... truly)- then you will see that our dalliance with the EU bloc will very much be on the cards again, in one form, or another.

Full membership is highly unlikely, there is the option to join the EEA but that means obeying EU rules, including freedom of movement, in the short term I don’t think that is likely to happen. Even if a Labour government gets elected it’s a big move to reverse everything, my guess is we stick with what we have now for 10 yrs at least.

Sorry about the weird sentences, ny fingers can’t keep up with my brain?

Johnson’s room for manoeuvre, is pretty limited for a number of reasons.

The U.K. economic recovery is worse than all the other G7 nations, don’t forget the cost of fuel due to for a huge rise in spring. We are already a big rise in inflation. Tax rise and NI inflation still to hit the pocket.

He has to balance whether his popularity is worth a further hit to the economy by taking on the EU over the protocol which he negotiated and sold as a good deal.

But knowing Johnson I’m sure he will, so the poor U.K. will have to suffer as we ride out the PMs twisted ego.

The way it works in any case is that he can moan about a particular aspect of the protocol, give the Committee a months notice and even then it will be revisited every 3 months to see how things are doing.

There will be a lot of barks but no real bites I think.

The big bites will in any case always be the prerogative of the EU as they have the muscle.

Kali2

If Johnson triggers Art 16 and unleashes a full Trade War with EU (who btw control all the imports and exports) and The Deal is cancelled and we fall onto WTO Rules (and I think anyone who thinks that would be fine really do have to spend some time understand who WTO is and what the rules are... truly)- then you will see that our dalliance with the EU bloc will very much be on the cards again, in one form, or another.

I’m not sure to be honest that that will happen. I think that Johnson via Frost will do a lot of shouting and threatening because he badly needs something to take attention away from all the corruption and sleaze that he is embroiled in, and he probably figures he can win back a bit of support by shouting Brexit again and getting the attention of leavers. But, it is a risk as polls are now showing that the majority of people in the U.K. would vote to return to the EU. In January the full checks at the U.K. border are due to be instigated, which of course will threaten the creaking supply chain even further and the U.K. can never win a trade war.

It would be lose, lose,lose.