100,000 NHS staff unvaccinated

I absolutely agree that the government is right to make vaccination mandatory for everyone who works in health care, in fact it should be mandatory for anyone who is not medically exempt. However, I am concerned that this has been delayed until April when we have the winter to get through. Health care workers have been given more than enough time to be vaccinated. The government need to introduce ‘vaccination passports’ as they have in Wales as well as mask wearing in public places.

Biscuitmuncher

A lot of people dont think the vaccine is safe and also that it doesn't work! Why the need for boosters a few months after two injections!

Yet they are vastly outnumbered by people who think the vaccine is safe and are happy to have a booster, to minimise the chance of severe or fatal Covid.

Biscuitmuncher

A lot of people dont think the vaccine is safe and also that it doesn't work! Why the need for boosters a few months after two injections!

Because immunity wanes. That doesn't mean that the vaccine is dangerous nor that it doesn't work. The evidence is clear that vaccination does work, despite not being 100% effective, which nobody ever claimed.

A lot of people dont think the vaccine is safe and also that it doesn't work! Why the need for boosters a few months after two injections!

That was the research I heard on the BBc today with reference to what has seen to be effective in this country. I stress that I mean what is effective in encouraging people to have the vaccine, I am not arguing whether the vaccine is effective. I am not a flat earther

I know someone who has long Covid from hospital-acquired Covid and he seems to be a shadow of his former very robust self, yet another who was very ill, caught Covid in hospital but was symptomless.

It is such a random illness.

I read yesterday that 11,000 people have died after catching Covid in hospital. I know 2 of those.

I don't personally know very many adults who have caught Covid but most of those who did caught it in hospital.

I cannot understand why anyone would not have the vaccine. Who would want anyone in the health sector seeing them that wasn’t vaccinated?

Our local NHS trust gives half a day off to every member who has the flu jab!
Perhaps their holding out for a week off for the COVID jab?

Galaxy

Thanks for explaining issues around care to me Kali, I managed care services for a very long time.
It's actually a bit more complex, what you are asking people to do is work with unvaccinated people (unless you advocate that those receiving care also must be vaccinated) for low pay and poor conditions in terms of working hours etc, whilst insisting they have a vaccine they are unsure of. Oh whilst people slag them off on social media. The current evidence shows that this approach (mandatory vaccination) is not particularly effective, in fact possibly the opposite. I have moved to work in services for young children where certainly in my area we have a crisis in recruitment, I understand that in other forms of care it is even worse.

Please can you provide a link to the current evidence you refer to that shows mandatory vaccination is possibly ineffective. I would be interested to read that as up till now I cannot understand why anyone would not have the vaccine just because they think it might not work?

Succinctly put Kali2.

Calmlocket

On breakfast tv they were interviewing a care worker, she said
"whats the point in the vaccine when you can still catch and spread covid, some of the elderly in care homes have refused the jab and unvacinated visitors can still visit care homes. she was also concerned about long term effects of the covid years down the line.

If the vaccine works why are the vaccinated still catching, spreading, dying of covid?

This was never denied. What is true is that the disease is less likely to put you in hospital. Unfortunately those vaccinated and dying are people with underlying conditions. To use, you can still catch it, is just a weak excuse not to have it at all.
John Campbell has a video on this, You tube.

Galaxy well this approach seems to have worked in France, out of 2.7 million staff only 3,000 have been suspended for not having their vaccination.

You say evidence shows that mandatory vaccination doesn’t work and could have the opposite effect Galaxy yet it was mentioned on the tv news last night that France introduced a ‘no jab no job’ policy in its health service and their vaccinated staff numbers shot up.
Yes I agree that persuasion is always the best policy but we have surely got to the point now that a firmer stance is needed.

Kali has explained all the reasons why health care workers and carers should be vaccinated, so I’m not going to mention them all again. However she is absolutely right.

Indeed we do varian. Laws that protect everyone, but curtail our freedom.

When my niece started her nurse training 30 years ago, she had to have various vaccinations, hepatitis being one of them.

If she had refused, she wouldn’t have been allowed on the course.

Seems sensible to me. Have all these refusers had other vaccinations in the past, polio, diptheria and others? What is so different about this one?

I’m just about to set off for my twice weekly care home visit. I’ve had both vaccinations and my booster. I am extremely careful in my daily life to keep all risk to an absolute minimum because I’m in an out of a care home where most of the residents in the unit are ECV. Several of them died at the start of the pandemic when an untested patient was sent there from hospital and developed symptoms after arrival.

They are sitting ducks. For that reason I take every precaution I can. Visitors to the home require to wear masks and remain 2 metres apart other than a brief hug on arrival. I hope all staff are vaccinated but have no way of knowing. They are in close proximity for the duration of 12 hour shifts. Residents are at much more risk from unvaccinated staff than they are from visiting relatives.

If I exercise my freedom not to wear a seat belt I am more likely to die in an accident but relatively unlikely to harm anyone else.

However if I exercise my freedom to drive on the right hand side of the road when all the other traffic is driving on the left, not only will I probably end up dead but it is very likely that others will be harmed in the process.

Hence we have laws which curtail our freedom to do whatever we want.

Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose - quote.
I would hate to be in a hospital or a care home where the people looking after me were unvaccinated.
I can’t remember the number of people who went into hospital and tested negative and then caught Covid. One should not come out of hospital with something one didn’t go in with.

Thanks for explaining issues around care to me Kali, I managed care services for a very long time.
It's actually a bit more complex, what you are asking people to do is work with unvaccinated people (unless you advocate that those receiving care also must be vaccinated) for low pay and poor conditions in terms of working hours etc, whilst insisting they have a vaccine they are unsure of. Oh whilst people slag them off on social media. The current evidence shows that this approach (mandatory vaccination) is not particularly effective, in fact possibly the opposite. I have moved to work in services for young children where certainly in my area we have a crisis in recruitment, I understand that in other forms of care it is even worse.

I run a care service. I think that people who refuse vaccination without good medical grounds have no place working in health and social care. I'm very lucky that 100% of my staff agree with me and have been double (soon to be triple) vaccinated. Those who are dying with Covid now are mainly the 85+ age group with numerous medical conditions. If they have compromised immune systems the vaccine may not work very well on them. All Health and care staff need to show a commitment to keeping them safe or look for work they are more suited to.

Kali2

Galaxy

They hold a different opinion to you that's what's 'wrong' with them.

It is not as simple as that. Freedom- whose freedom. It always has to be balanced with the effect on others.

There is on the one hand, the choice of care workers or health workers, on a personal level, not to be vaccinated

and on the other hand, the freedom of the elderly, in care homes or in need of care at home, the weak and fragile, for any reasons, including those who are immuno-supressed- of all ages, having cancer treatment or in remission, and many more- who should be able to choose if they are cared for, or treated, by those who are vaccinated and less likely to infect or re-infect them, or those who are not and ...

Why should the choice of some, put some at greater risks the others- especially the ... long list above and more. And society at large too, for whom this crisis is lasting much longer than it should due to low levels of vaccination in some areas.

I have many friends who are not vaccinated, and I choose to be tolerant of their views, and still meet up with them socially. Most of them take responsibility for their decision and do everything to avoid putting anyone at risk. Fair enough.

But if you are a carer or healthworker, doctor, nurse, etc- then it is a different situation. Their cares, patients have NO choice in who treats them, and are not even allowed to ask. And they have no choice to avoid the situation, being in contact with the above - for obvious reasons. Where is THEIR freedom?

The weight should be in favour of the weak and fragile- always.

Absolutely agree with the sentiments expressed here.

My son is currently waiting for surgery, he will have little choice in the staff around him at this time.
He's followed all of the guidance and tried his very best to remain safe...why should that be risked in a hospital when all he wants is his quality of life improved.

I find it very difficult to understand their mindset.
Those who work with sick, elderly, vulnerable people have chosen to do that work presumably because they are of a caring disposition, which is why their refusal to protect those they are looking after is so difficult to understand.

An added complication of course is that there are staff shortages in both the NHS and the care sector generally, so where will that leave us if too many dig their heels in and still refuse to be jabbed?