100,000 NHS staff unvaccinated

On breakfast tv they were interviewing a care worker, she said
"whats the point in the vaccine when you can still catch and spread covid, some of the elderly in care homes have refused the jab and unvacinated visitors can still visit care homes. she was also concerned about long term effects of the covid years down the line.

If the vaccine works why are the vaccinated still catching, spreading, dying of covid?

Carers aside, healthcare workers aren't required to be vaccinated.
They should have interviewed the person responsible for making that decision.

Not just in the UK- all over Europe too, and the world.

The point, calmlocket, is that the vaccinated are much less likely to catch it, much less likely to spread it, and much much less likely to have a severe infection, and much much less likely to be hospitalised. Seems worth it, no?

These people make me so angry and are stopping us ever reaching a level of herd immunity. I just can't understand why anyone would refuse this vaccine which has given us most of our freedoms back.

Kali2

The point, calmlocket, is that the vaccinated are much less likely to catch it, much less likely to spread it, and much much less likely to have a severe infection, and much much less likely to be hospitalised. Seems worth it, no?

Indeed.

And much less likely to die as well.

There will always be people who just don't like being told what to do. They'll make up their own minds - yet seem unwilling to establish the known facts and reach a logical decision.

The vaccine levels of take up correlate highly with levels of education, unsurprisingly. I really think that those who are unwilling to have the vaccine should find other employment - as they're obviously unsuitable for working in the NHS.

I should have said that the details I mentioned are for England only.
Interestingly when I had my booster last week, the pharmacist was telling me about a woman in her twenties who had previously refused the vaccine as she was certain her immune system would protect her.
Then her mother, also unvaccinated caught it and was seriously ill in hospital, hence the change of opinion of the daughter.

Am I right in assuming that the 100000 is just England Trusts?
There are approx 223 Trusts in England, which then becomes <450 unvaccinated staff, per Trust that's not a bad %.
Still think more will come forward with No jab, No job! this is the most sensible decision should have been done months ago.

They hold a different opinion to you that's what's 'wrong' with them.

I can see both sides of this, although I would like to see all front line health care workers vaccinated for the reasons Kali2 listed. I foresee lots of protests against this, this is a nice thing for the anti vaxxers and conspiracy theorists to get their teeth into.

Galaxy

They hold a different opinion to you that's what's 'wrong' with them.

It is not as simple as that. Freedom- whose freedom. It always has to be balanced with the effect on others.

There is on the one hand, the choice of care workers or health workers, on a personal level, not to be vaccinated

and on the other hand, the freedom of the elderly, in care homes or in need of care at home, the weak and fragile, for any reasons, including those who are immuno-supressed- of all ages, having cancer treatment or in remission, and many more- who should be able to choose if they are cared for, or treated, by those who are vaccinated and less likely to infect or re-infect them, or those who are not and ...

Why should the choice of some, put some at greater risks the others- especially the ... long list above and more. And society at large too, for whom this crisis is lasting much longer than it should due to low levels of vaccination in some areas.

I have many friends who are not vaccinated, and I choose to be tolerant of their views, and still meet up with them socially. Most of them take responsibility for their decision and do everything to avoid putting anyone at risk. Fair enough.

But if you are a carer or healthworker, doctor, nurse, etc- then it is a different situation. Their cares, patients have NO choice in who treats them, and are not even allowed to ask. And they have no choice to avoid the situation, being in contact with the above - for obvious reasons. Where is THEIR freedom?

The weight should be in favour of the weak and fragile- always.

Galaxy

They hold a different opinion to you that's what's 'wrong' with them.

Not sure about that. A difference of opinion is fine when discussing politics and what newspaper we read. But this is different. It's literally life and death.

Kali2 good post.

Freedom comes at a price, and in the case of NHS/Care workers whether they work in hospitals, homes or in the community that price is have the vaccine or get moved to a back room position whereby they do not come into contact with vulnerable folks.

Calmlocket

On breakfast tv they were interviewing a care worker, she said
"whats the point in the vaccine when you can still catch and spread covid, some of the elderly in care homes have refused the jab and unvacinated visitors can still visit care homes. she was also concerned about long term effects of the covid years down the line.

If the vaccine works why are the vaccinated still catching, spreading, dying of covid?

because it massively massively reduces the chances of any of those things! No vaccine is 100% effective.

I find it very difficult to understand their mindset.
Those who work with sick, elderly, vulnerable people have chosen to do that work presumably because they are of a caring disposition, which is why their refusal to protect those they are looking after is so difficult to understand.

An added complication of course is that there are staff shortages in both the NHS and the care sector generally, so where will that leave us if too many dig their heels in and still refuse to be jabbed?

Kali2

Galaxy

They hold a different opinion to you that's what's 'wrong' with them.

It is not as simple as that. Freedom- whose freedom. It always has to be balanced with the effect on others.

There is on the one hand, the choice of care workers or health workers, on a personal level, not to be vaccinated

and on the other hand, the freedom of the elderly, in care homes or in need of care at home, the weak and fragile, for any reasons, including those who are immuno-supressed- of all ages, having cancer treatment or in remission, and many more- who should be able to choose if they are cared for, or treated, by those who are vaccinated and less likely to infect or re-infect them, or those who are not and ...

Why should the choice of some, put some at greater risks the others- especially the ... long list above and more. And society at large too, for whom this crisis is lasting much longer than it should due to low levels of vaccination in some areas.

I have many friends who are not vaccinated, and I choose to be tolerant of their views, and still meet up with them socially. Most of them take responsibility for their decision and do everything to avoid putting anyone at risk. Fair enough.

But if you are a carer or healthworker, doctor, nurse, etc- then it is a different situation. Their cares, patients have NO choice in who treats them, and are not even allowed to ask. And they have no choice to avoid the situation, being in contact with the above - for obvious reasons. Where is THEIR freedom?

The weight should be in favour of the weak and fragile- always.

Absolutely agree with the sentiments expressed here.

My son is currently waiting for surgery, he will have little choice in the staff around him at this time.
He's followed all of the guidance and tried his very best to remain safe...why should that be risked in a hospital when all he wants is his quality of life improved.

I run a care service. I think that people who refuse vaccination without good medical grounds have no place working in health and social care. I'm very lucky that 100% of my staff agree with me and have been double (soon to be triple) vaccinated. Those who are dying with Covid now are mainly the 85+ age group with numerous medical conditions. If they have compromised immune systems the vaccine may not work very well on them. All Health and care staff need to show a commitment to keeping them safe or look for work they are more suited to.

Thanks for explaining issues around care to me Kali, I managed care services for a very long time.
It's actually a bit more complex, what you are asking people to do is work with unvaccinated people (unless you advocate that those receiving care also must be vaccinated) for low pay and poor conditions in terms of working hours etc, whilst insisting they have a vaccine they are unsure of. Oh whilst people slag them off on social media. The current evidence shows that this approach (mandatory vaccination) is not particularly effective, in fact possibly the opposite. I have moved to work in services for young children where certainly in my area we have a crisis in recruitment, I understand that in other forms of care it is even worse.

Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose - quote.
I would hate to be in a hospital or a care home where the people looking after me were unvaccinated.
I can’t remember the number of people who went into hospital and tested negative and then caught Covid. One should not come out of hospital with something one didn’t go in with.

If I exercise my freedom not to wear a seat belt I am more likely to die in an accident but relatively unlikely to harm anyone else.

However if I exercise my freedom to drive on the right hand side of the road when all the other traffic is driving on the left, not only will I probably end up dead but it is very likely that others will be harmed in the process.

Hence we have laws which curtail our freedom to do whatever we want.

I’m just about to set off for my twice weekly care home visit. I’ve had both vaccinations and my booster. I am extremely careful in my daily life to keep all risk to an absolute minimum because I’m in an out of a care home where most of the residents in the unit are ECV. Several of them died at the start of the pandemic when an untested patient was sent there from hospital and developed symptoms after arrival.

They are sitting ducks. For that reason I take every precaution I can. Visitors to the home require to wear masks and remain 2 metres apart other than a brief hug on arrival. I hope all staff are vaccinated but have no way of knowing. They are in close proximity for the duration of 12 hour shifts. Residents are at much more risk from unvaccinated staff than they are from visiting relatives.

When my niece started her nurse training 30 years ago, she had to have various vaccinations, hepatitis being one of them.

If she had refused, she wouldn’t have been allowed on the course.

Seems sensible to me. Have all these refusers had other vaccinations in the past, polio, diptheria and others? What is so different about this one?

Indeed we do varian. Laws that protect everyone, but curtail our freedom.