Johnson wanting to overrule the judiciary !

Proroguing meant that by the time they reconvened, the deadline for Brexit would be past and further discussion would be too late. It may have been a tactic in another battle, but it was a clincher in the Brexit one.

And a step in the bypassing of discussion by those "elected representatives" who are supposed to be sovereign.

Exactly, that was my point.

Nezumi65

I have been following this story for a while - there are sane Tory MPs who think this is a step too far. Whether enough of them are prepared to put their necks on the line to do the right thing remains to be seen (I doubt it).

I wonder when the tory sheep MPs will wake up to the fact that the Executive is working to do them out of a job. Pass a bill putting the Executive above the law and bingo, MPs aren't needed any more... The law is whatever the Executive says it is... Judges have to comply or lose their jobs...

About government and parliament

A government with too much power.

A parliamentary system should put parliament at the centre, accountable only to the voters. In the UK parliament is weak in the face of government power, and that's largely because of the Crown and the monarchy.

The Crown gives the government huge powers to take decisions without parliament or to control parliamentary business, whether that's deciding when parliament will be running or having the power to ensure proposed laws they disagree with have little chance of getting passed.

The monarchy also denies us an independent, effective head of state. That means there is little check on the use of royal powers and no-one to arbitrate during political crises. It's like having a football match with no referee.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

In the UK parliament is sovereign, which means it's the highest power in the land. No court can overturn a decision made by parliament, no treaty can override laws passed by parliament. A court could rule that a law conflicts with a treaty, or with another law, but a judge can't override or scrap that law.

That's not how a democracy should work. Parliament is there to work for us, not to rule over us. And given the control government has over parliament, the current constitution ends up concentrating huge amounts of power in the hands of the Prime Minister and government ministers.

In terms of domestic law the British government is one of the most powerful in the democratic world.

A real parliamentary democracy
The answer to this is simple enough. There's no need to throw the whole constitution out the window. We just need to make every part of it more democratic and re-balance power between people, parliament and government.

and people just don't care, and if they start to take notice then Johnson and the press will distract them with something else, probably the birth of the next Johnson baby. Twitter is alive with people writing about this, intelligent articulate people who are desperately trying to warn everyone.

To continue the Civil War theme, if Parliamentarians are spinning in their graves, Charles 1 must be laughing his head off...

Talking to a friend about this very worrying issue and I have copied part of the conversation from my friend.

This is being discussed as gill57 says by intelligent and articulate people who are very alarmed.

“This government, while promoting “nothing has changed” or “this is what the people wanted” or even “everyone does it” is fundamentally undermining our democracy.
No one is making this up. They are not being over dramatic. This is being done and no amount of saying nothing has changed will convince all voters or, eventually, even some. People eventually see through gas-lighting.
The attempts of diminishing someone’s belief in what they say and therefore their self esteem by belittling the concerns of others will not work either. There are too many who see this government, its leader and its followers for exactly what they are.
People will speak truth to power. The government has broken the rules. They have tried to undermine democracy. They have tried to undermine justice. They have tried to undermine our judiciary. Followers of the Tories (they are all to blame not just Johnson) who say they are not seeing the rain – the sun is shining while standing in the downpour will be shown up for what they are. We can see the rain and will keep saying it is raining.
Blatant lies, the shifting of the narrative will not minimise how the country feels about the undermining of democracy. Some will be cowed but not all.
These gas-lighting Tories will also try to deflect and minimise. Notice the conversations that are becoming circular and unfair and always call it out.
Remember the goal of gas-lighting is to make you doubt your perception. It is never done for a good purpose.
Remember too that your thinking and your feeling are as valid as anyone else’s. Yes, you are prepared to learn but do not be prepared to be told what you say isn’t valid – just because it happened last year or the gas-lighter tells you no one cares.
Remember too these people often have narcissistic personality disorder. They only want what they want and don’t care how they get it. They will not change. However, more will listen. If necessary simply disengage from the gas-lighter.”

Sound advice.

Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.

The biggest impediment to the independence of parliament is the whipping system, not the Crown, Grany. If MPs were truly independent they would vote according to what they believed to be right for the country, not what their party instructs them to do.

Replacing the monarch with another Head of State would do nothing to change this. What you propose just gives another 'body' unlimited powers...

GillT57

and people just don't care, and if they start to take notice then Johnson and the press will distract them with something else, probably the birth of the next Johnson baby. Twitter is alive with people writing about this, intelligent articulate people who are desperately trying to warn everyone.

Well, that cheers me up ! Not on Twitter but brilliant that this is now becoming a subject of great concern to many.
As so it should !

Ironically, the very thing which is distracting a lot of people ie the Downing Street non party last December, is causing a lot of discussion about the very subject of the rule of law. Many are horrified that Raab, a barrister and Lord Chancellor said on Maar yesterday that the police do not usually investigate alleged crimes a year after the event. Just stop, look, and take that apart and weep that we have a man of such stunning stupidity in our government.

Was Raab a barrister? I thought he was a solicitor..

Whatever he is it was a deeply stupid thing to say. And wrong, as many lawyers on twitter have pointed out.

MaizieD

^Parliament is weak in the face of government, largely there to do what it's told. But in terms of the power of make laws, change our constitution and determine our rights, parliament is all powerful.^

The biggest impediment to the independence of parliament is the whipping system, not the Crown, Grany. If MPs were truly independent they would vote according to what they believed to be right for the country, not what their party instructs them to do.

Replacing the monarch with another Head of State would do nothing to change this. What you propose just gives another 'body' unlimited powers...

A n elected Head of State would have limited powers MaizieD

Well, don't care what he was, he's an idiot on many levels, plus the fact he has an axe to grind having been demoted.
Always keep your friends close and your enemies closer comes to mind. Et tu Brute !

GillT57

and people just don't care, and if they start to take notice then Johnson and the press will distract them with something else, probably the birth of the next Johnson baby. Twitter is alive with people writing about this, intelligent articulate people who are desperately trying to warn everyone.

"and people just don't care"

... many don't. And some don't even understand the threat, and still more are in agreement with the government because they're convinced that the judiciary are obsessed with the human rights of immigrants and criminals over the law-abiding, and have "gone soft". So they'll cheer and vote Tory.

And when they, themselves, need recourse to justice, or they're incensed at some piece of legislation that affects their lives and want to protest, they'll find that all those avenues have been closed off. I hope they'll remember then when they cheered and nodded to each other in agreement at the appalling "Enemies of the People" headline in the Daily Mail.

I'm not 'Boris Bashing' or attacking the Tories for the sake of it, I really believe we are at a crossroads in our constitutional and democratic way of life. And I'm pretty sure we're going to go in the wrong direction.

As I said in the onset of this discussion I truly thought it was a hoax - could not happen here . Totally agree with Dickens this is a huge threat to our accepted way of life. Does not help that we do not have a written Constition , we sort of bumble along adding bits and pieces to our laws as thought fit at the time.
But this is way beyond an odd tweak this is akin to Despotism and it really does scare the hell out of me ! How dare they !!!!

constitution I meant !

MaizieD

Was Raab a barrister? I thought he was a solicitor..

Whatever he is it was a deeply stupid thing to say. And wrong, as many lawyers on twitter have pointed out.

Sorry , my mistake, but it was still a stunningly stupid thing to say.

more are in agreement with the government because they're convinced that the judiciary are obsessed with the human rights of immigrants and criminals over the law-abiding, and have "gone soft". So they'll cheer and vote Tory. Oh yes, all those 'leftie lawyers' with their obsession with human rights, all those enemies of the people.

He was always quite open about wanting to do this, and yet people still voted for him. This is an old article I saved from a couple of years ago about them wanting to control the news media.

MaizieD

A pertinent paragraph.

'Government' seem to have got their understanding of themselves a bit muddled here. It is Parliament that is sovereign, not the Executive (the government). 'Parliament' is the sum total of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. And being 'sovereign' does not mean being above the Rule of Law.

With a big majority and MPs who seem to be oblivious to the fact that the Executive is bent on overturning Parliamentary Sovereignty and the Rule of Law this proposal could well become law and the Executive would reign supreme.

We fought a bloody civil war in the 17th C to establish the supremacy of Parliament and prevent dictatorship by the Crown (which the Executive in parliament represents). Every Parliamentarian from then onwards must be turning in their graves in utter horror and disbelief at this proposal.

I will forebear to make comparisons with Nazi Germany...

I should hope so. Do not think the Government are looking to murder millions of their own citizens. Ridiculous analogy. Left wing papers are bound to exaggerate whatever they get leaked to them, as they are totally against this Government, in fact any Government that isn’t Labour.

MayBee70

He was always quite open about wanting to do this, and yet people still voted for him. This is an old article I saved from a couple of years ago about them wanting to control the news media.

But...but...but...

We were assured by some people who voted for him that he was a libertarian...

Do not think the Government are looking to murder millions of their own citizens.

Well, I have to admit that if that is your only takeaway from the Nazi government we have a little way to go, yet.. unless you count the horrendous covid death toll caused mostly by government inaction and 'let the bodies pile high in their thousands..'

But there was considerably more that was bad about the Nazi government than just Jew murdering.

Lincslass It took Hitler 13 years to get to power in Germany. No one is suggesting that right now the Govt is intending on killing lots of people. But they are going down a similar route as all other dictators, whether extreme right or left wing (rather more of the former at at the moment) by trying to control the judiciary. It's interesting how the libertarians in the govt are supporting the current proposals to change the law as regards demonstrations etc.

Even more worrying are the libertarians in the population who enthusiastically support this authoritarian government.

They never seem to see the contradiction between the "I'm not wearing a mask - its my human right to refuse" with their avowed hatred of the Human Rights Act.