Politics: a pandemic of the unvaccinated.

I meant to say thanks to Ross Atkins of the BBC.

Nope.

Compulsory medical treatment of any kind is unacceptable. If we make it a condition that you have to take a given medical treatment to take part in society, then we are allowing the government of the day, of whichever persuasion they might be, to impose their decisions about what is right on the whole populace. So in return for a bit of safety, we turn over autonomy over our own bodies.

It's a sure way to sow division and conflict in society. It doesn't matter if other countries are doing it, they make their own decisions, we shouldn't do it. I believe around 50% of people think that we should bring back capital punishment. Just because a measure would be popular, it doesn't mean it's a good idea and we should do it.

Be careful what you wish for.

I’m absolutely - at the moment - on the fence with this one.

I can see the merit in both sides. I also suspect that this debate will widen and change as covid shows us it’s many faces.

Nope. Everything that Alegrias said with bells on. I cant begin to describe how unpleasant I find this.
Oh and as an aside I wouldnt follow Bidens lead on anything.

No, totally unacceptable I agree with Alegrias1

Definitely not
It’s not going down that well in counties that are try mandatory vaccination

A resounding 'No' to mandatory vaccines.

Yes I take everything said so far and absolutely agree.

My issue is that I can’t see how that line can be held if a significant level of the population are resisting the vaccine and they are acting as covid factories that are producing more dangerous variants.

I think this really is probably an argument for a huge push to vaccinate the world, more than compulsion, as presumably once we have reached a level of say 90% fully vaccinated in the U.K. and I think that is possible the odd refuser will benefit from our protection.

I m not so sure on this, a couple of years ago I would have said a great big no but we ve got to get out of this pickle and what other way do you all believe is acceptable ?
NHS workers have to have hep vaccines is this so very different ?
Like you WW2 I m not as sure as I was if the unvaccinated are going to be taking up hospital beds that cancer, sepsis and other very ill folks are needing how can that be right ?

How about unvaccinated (by choice) have to go private for their treatment if they are ill from CoviD

So let’s carry on with Covid mutating into goodness knows what. Remember all those families who lost loved ones before vaccines came into use. Covid is an invasion into all our lives, shame on those who don’t want to help fight it.

bluebelle Singapore have chosen the pay for your treatment route.

I’m on the fence too. There is a clear civic duty to get vaccinated and protect one another by what ever means possible, but compulsory vaccines for everyone is a step too far. It might however be the ‘ least restrictive’ solution to protecting everyone if a severe infection occurs in future. It will be interesting to watch what solutions other countries come up with- assuming there might be an innovative solution that can protect the populace without resorting to compulsory vaccines for all!

If you make people who haven't had the vaccine pay for their NHS care, you create a two tier system based only on wealth. Wealthy people can choose not to have the vaccine and just pay, while poorer ones have to have the vaccine or just die.

And that is where we end up. Unintended consequences.

We've picked the low hanging fruit with the vaccinations. Look at how many older people rushed to take it up, and how many younger ones followed suit. Its incumbent on the government - any government - to do its best for the people. Which in this case means developing real ways of getting as many people vaccinated as possible. Looking at the real reasons people don't get vaccinated and addressing the problems. Not pretending everybody who doesn't have the vaccine is a rabid anti-vaxxer who believes we're going to be injected with microchips.

I agree with Alegrias too, I think it's a slippery slope and forcing vaccines on the unwilling, is as Sajid Javid, rightly stated unethical. Police state tactics!

Having said that, as most contributors to the "Singapore" thread have stated just make their lives difficult by precluding them from virtually everything they would do under normal circumstances.

I really don't know.

I think we need to be a lot clearer about whether vaccinations reduce the risk of transmission. Currently, some studies claim it does, but it's all a bit vague and nobody really knows that much about omicron.

It's known that vaccinations provide protection (even if not perfect), so the people who are known to suffer most are the unvaccinated and the people caring for them.

I don't think we should go down the route of differentiating between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in terms of treatment.

Nevertheless, I think everything should be done to encourage people to get vaccinated, including challenging blatant misinformation and making vaccination as easy as possible.

In the end, there will still be people who choose not to be vaccinated and I think some decisions need to be made. If it's proved that unvaccinated people are more likely to transmit infection, I think there's a strong case for barring the unvaccinated from jobs which involve personal or one-to-one care. I'm not a fan of Covid passports because I'm not sure how effective they would be, if the vaccinated can still transmit.

I think everybody, including children, should be offered a full course of vaccinations for their own and their families' protection.

My personal opinion is that there's too much emphasis on vaccinations. We need to reduce transmission, not only for people's health, to reduce pressure on the NHS but also to slow down the rate at which the virus mutates. The only ways of doing that is to provide physical barriers (masks, social distancing) and air filtration systems and frequent testing, including follow-up actions. We can't lock the whole world up for a few weeks in individual cells for obvious reasons (even though it would eradicate the virus) but we can look honestly at high-risk areas and mitigate where possible, including in schools.

It's a difficult one. Compulsory vaccination isn't quite the same as forced medical interventions, but it is a slippery slope.

Perhaps the first step should be much better education and information to persuade those who aren't "rabid anti-vaxxers".

As for paying for medical care, we don't want to lose our NHS benefits, but I've often thought that a contribution to the 'hotel' costs of being in hospital - food and laundry - isn't unreasonable. After all, if you're retired and in hospital for any length of time you have to hand over at least part of your state pension. A standard 'fee' for everyone would be better, based on your ability to pay.

Excellent post growstuff.

I'd give my right arm ( no pun intended ) to continue with the vaccination programme if I thought I wouldn't have the reaction that I did in January. I was completely wiped-out in February with dizziness and total unsteadiness on my feet to the extent that I thought I'd had another TIA. I couldn't put one foot in front of the other and the nausea was crippling.

As it is I take a blood-thinner for my condition ( A/Fib ) so there's already a blood-clotting disorder present and only for that medication I shudder to think what could have happened.

This means I'll have to face the future, with, on my part, trepidation, but as far as the public is concerned, refused entry in many/ most venues unless you prove a full vaccination certificate,. and treated like a leper.

However, on another level, those with double vacs and possibly a booster , and because this is the case, feel free to gad about thinking they're protected and they're not !
It's just been announced that there are 60% of covid patients in hospital who've been double-jabbed ? That is high and probably reflects their complacency because they were double-jabbed.

I'm hoping my 'flu jab has a certain amount of protection though the furthest I'll be going is the local shops, no big stores for me-----again.

Lincslass

So let’s carry on with Covid mutating into goodness knows what. Remember all those families who lost loved ones before vaccines came into use. Covid is an invasion into all our lives, shame on those who don’t want to help fight it.

Before the pandemic I would have agreed 100% that compulsory medical treatment of any kind is a slippery slope. Now I’m not so sure - having seen some of the quite frankly ridiculous reasons and dangerous misinformation bandied about these very threads. I’m certainly not in favour of withholding medical treatment for the unvaccinated, or going down the pay route, but something has to be done. How much more proof do people need that there is more risk from Covid than there ever will be from the vaccine ? How much more convincing do people need that the vaccine is safe and has been thoroughly tested.

I’m CEV and am now finding out that because of Omicron, the protection I thought I had from the two vaccines I had are vastly reduced - and even with the booster Omicron reduces efficacy to 75%. It’s spreading fast and is set to be the dominant variant by next week !! Viruses mutate - that’s what they do - and unless we do something to get more people vaccinated this is just going to go on and on. I think rather than making vaccination compulsory, maybe the way forward for now, is to make life much more difficult for the unvaccinated - ban entry into venues, restaurants, shops, etc, without a vaccine passport. I hate the thought of compelling people to take any form of medical intervention, but we can’t just sit back and accept that people have a right not to be vaccinated without good reason.

I’m not sure what the answer is but as NHS staff are attempting to make inroads to a huge backlog of deferred cases, it must be pretty galling to see beds fill up with patients who do have the luxury of deciding whether to be ill or not.

We may just have to wait it out until those who decide not to be vaccinated, contract the virus, build immunity to cancel out the need for hospitalisation in the future.

It's just been announced that there are 60% of covid patients in hospital who've been double-jabbed ? That is high and probably reflects their complacency because they were double-jabbed.

Its not high, its as expected. It reflects the fact that even vaccinated people can catch covid, even if they are being as careful as possible. Not at all that they are complacent.

My dd has just finished a four-month stint in A&E. The vast majority of their Covid patients are unvaccinated and almost all the rest are elderly people with either comorbidities or poor immune systems. There’s also the great unspoken of weight.

Dd has been working 75 hour weeks while being asked to work extra shifts on top of that. Totally illegal but that’s what hospitals are having to do.

Having said which, making anything compulsory really goes against the grain for me plus I can’t really see how it could happen. Would teams of medics in masks be roaming the streets, syringes at the ready to jab the unvaxxed?

This might be a useful graphic to show how the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated BUT the risk of being hospitalised if you're vaccinated is still lower.