Ghislaine Maxwell Found Guilty

Coersive control is about so much more than being threatened.

kjmpde, Germanshepherdsmum
I agree with some of what you say. There does not appear to have been any evidence of coercion, threats or bullying, just enticement to participate in what appeared to be an exotic lifestyle. I don't dispute it was criminal to expose fourteen year old girls to this.
What I genuinely do not understand. in this and other cases, was for example, a girl saying she froze with fear when Epstein pulled down her pants. Horrible. Why then did she go back, again and again?
I thought initially the girls were trapped in a sort of Playboy Mansion on an island, semi-captive, like girls who have been trafficked and are unable to leave, but these girls were living at home and called in for 'work.' So it was a conscious decision to go. Each time. Why?
Were they threatened?

Whatever the traumas of her own upbringing, she must take the punishment for her crimes.

Prisons are heaving with people who have had traumas in their past, but they are still being made to serve the sentences for the crimes they committed. Most of the prison population in the UK are from disturbed backgrounds (drug use, childhood abuse etc.) and there is a strong case to be made for them to receive the help they need in prison to lead more settled law-abiding lives - I am absolutely sure that this only happens in a tiny minority of cases.

Sad thought her upbringing probably was, she must go to prison and serve her sentence.

Atqui

I also presumed the comment by Annibach re wealthy abused victims was meant to be ironic/sarcastic

Yes, it seemed obvious it was irony.

Blondiescot

GillT57 - totally agree with you. Some of the views which have been expressed in relation to this - not necessarily on this particular thread - have been reprehensible to say the least. I recall there was a lot of victim blaming - or victim shaming - going on.

We often don't know who posters are - they could be representatives of some of the men involved.

I also presumed the comment by Annibach re wealthy abused victims was meant to be ironic/sarcastic

GillT57

Violetsky, when the Prince Andrew case started coming to light, there were some on GN (not posting on this thread I notice) who suggested that some of the underage girls should be thrilled to be raped by sleep with a prince. Never underestimate the ability of some, even parents of girls, to blame the victims, accuse them of being motivated by money or fame

That is so awful

GillT57 - totally agree with you. Some of the views which have been expressed in relation to this - not necessarily on this particular thread - have been reprehensible to say the least. I recall there was a lot of victim blaming - or victim shaming - going on.

kjmpde

my views will be controversial but i think some of the women bringing the claims were not so vulnerable as they claim. they enjoyed the lifestyle that mixing with Epstein and his associates gave them. i still think that some of them would not have brought a claim if it was not for money - telling their story for instance? how else can they pay for the legal fees?

That has been my view from the outset, unpopular though it is. tickingbird points to the difference between the way these girls were treated and those in the Rotherham etc cases which IMO were very different. PA's lawyers have accused Virginia Guiffre of seeking another payday, having already had money from Epstein's estate, and I agree.

Violetsky, when the Prince Andrew case started coming to light, there were some on GN (not posting on this thread I notice) who suggested that some of the underage girls should be thrilled to be raped by sleep with a prince. Never underestimate the ability of some, even parents of girls, to blame the victims, accuse them of being motivated by money or fame

VioletSky

kjmpde

my views will be controversial but i think some of the women bringing the claims were not so vulnerable as they claim. they enjoyed the lifestyle that mixing with Epstein and his associates gave them. i still think that some of them would not have brought a claim if it was not for money - telling their story for instance? how else can they pay for the legal fees?

I hope you rethink this because it was painful to read

Maybe they did, and maybe they were streetwise but and it’s a massive BUT they were underage and as such exploited. You can’t get away from that.

Anniebach
Doesn’t matter what her childhood was like she was wealthy,
childhood abuse only matters if the victim is poor

I take it this is sarcasm ?

Yes Lucca

kjmpde

my views will be controversial but i think some of the women bringing the claims were not so vulnerable as they claim. they enjoyed the lifestyle that mixing with Epstein and his associates gave them. i still think that some of them would not have brought a claim if it was not for money - telling their story for instance? how else can they pay for the legal fees?

I hope you rethink this because it was painful to read

You are entitled to your views but thankfully the court didn’t agree with you.

my views will be controversial but i think some of the women bringing the claims were not so vulnerable as they claim. they enjoyed the lifestyle that mixing with Epstein and his associates gave them. i still think that some of them would not have brought a claim if it was not for money - telling their story for instance? how else can they pay for the legal fees?

The full extent of PAs relationship is beginning to be revealed, not just with the Maxwell case but the Gufrie case as well. It’s becoming obvious he knew exactly what was going on. Wether he just acquiesced or actively participated has yet to be established but it looks pretty bad.

Maxwell obviously knows a lot of names and it would be very convenient if she disappeared, one way or the other, plea bargaining is not an option

Galaxy

He sounds a dangerous man Dickens.

I don't think he was saying that he personally would rape women, but was subscribing to the notion that if men are not allowed to use prostitutes they will become rapists.

... which is a ridiculous argument. But some men will use it as justification for prostitution, and that's what I believe he was doing... you know the argument, "prostitutes save women from being raped"....

Anniebach

Doesn’t matter what her childhood was like she was wealthy,
childhood abuse only matters if the victim is poor

I take it this is sarcasm ?

The news this morming seemed to be saying that the verdict could be both good and bad news for Prince Andrew. He seems to have emphasised that his friendship was with Ghislaine Maxwell and the association with Epstein was incidental . However, her conviction points up that he has been friendly for over two decades with a child abuser. On the other hand, there was nothing of any consequence said during the trial concerning PA; he was merely referred to as one of many 'celebrity' names often dropped into conversation by Ghislaine Maxwell. They didn't call Veronica Giuffre as there were 'glaring inconsistencies' in her testimony. What a tangled web; PA must be feeling the heat right now.

tickingbird

^Bradford/Rotherham/Oxford abuse cases was it was yachts and private planes instead of taxis and luxury houses rather than kebabs and vodka. Same crimes, same victims.^

Yes the Rotherham victims were also beaten, drugged and threatened with the most appalling punishments ie being set alight. I haven’t read of anything like that happening to the Epstein victims.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact is that none of us know what those girls (the Epstein victims) were threatened with. Abusers like Epstein and Maxwell have many ways of keeping their victims in line.

Bradford/Rotherham/Oxford abuse cases was it was yachts and private planes instead of taxis and luxury houses rather than kebabs and vodka. Same crimes, same victims.

Yes the Rotherham victims were also beaten, drugged and threatened with the most appalling punishments ie being set alight. I haven’t read of anything like that happening to the Epstein victims.

I'm with you Paddyann Children should never feel guilt or blame themselves for abuse and that sort of statement does not help.

Emotional abuse goes hand in hand with this and it is not their fault and very difficult to escape

paddyann your accusations are lies, my criticism of the
Rotherham abuse was of the police, and those in care of the girls , please apologise

paddyann54

"allows themselves to be abused teenagers" what an interesting turn of phrase ,are you one of those pople who believe teenage girls are "asking for it" certainly sounds that way.Whatever you personally believe and I have seen you say similar things about the Rotherham girls. its abuse ...because its illegal....children cant give consent ..there are NO child prostitutes just abused children .

Hear, hear. Out of fear (terror), out of a longing for affection, out of a desire to please to avoid being beaten, often children will “consent” to sexual behaviour. But it is far from an informed agreement

"allows themselves to be abused teenagers" what an interesting turn of phrase ,are you one of those pople who believe teenage girls are "asking for it" certainly sounds that way.Whatever you personally believe and I have seen you say similar things about the Rotherham girls. its abuse ...because its illegal....children cant give consent ..there are NO child prostitutes just abused children .