What have I just read???

Smileless2012

No, it isn't "only the 'good and nice' who go to heaven'" and any church worthy of being considered one wouldn't preach that DiscoDancer.

For Christians, our salvation is in our acceptance of Jesus as our saviour, our acceptance of the wrong we have done and our repentance.

Agree...but nonetheless, many churches preached, ( I haven’t been for ten years), about man working for the greater good. As Christians, we know that’s not going to happen. I don’t know how long it will all take, and we can’t speculate, but man will never put anything right on a permanent basis.

A few temporary moments perhaps. One thing for certain, we are in no position to judge what’s right and wrong, as we’re all sinners.

No, it isn't "only the 'good and nice' who go to heaven'" and any church worthy of being considered one wouldn't preach that DiscoDancer.

For Christians, our salvation is in our acceptance of Jesus as our saviour, our acceptance of the wrong we have done and our repentance.

A great post poshpaws I am in complete agreement.

poshpaws

Blondiescot

So why would any loving 'god' allow such evil to take place? This is a question which I have asked many, many times over the years, and to which no-one has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory answer. Did 'god' not make man in his own image, and if so, does that not mean 'god' is inherently evil too?

I'm not part of any organised religion - I think they have done so much harm historically and in the present with their dogma - but I have my own relationship with God, and my answer would be, that no, God didn't make man in his image, he allowed evolution to populate the earth, and allowed all the creatures on it free will and values a spider just as much as a human. If there is free will rather than pre-programming, then there will sadly always be people who choose evil rather than good.

God doesn't, in my opinion, condone that.

But this world - again my opinion - is not more than a "stage" or "training ground" where God hopes we will learn the values of compassion, endurance, forgiveness etc.

I believe those who try their best to do good and to do no harm, will at the end of their lives go to God and be allowed to remain with Him & all their loved ones who've reached Him before or come after.

And those who have been evil, cruel, prospered at the cost of others will be dealt with in whatever way God sees fit: I have no idea what that entails but I know I hope never to have to face it.

And it's not just the mass murderers like Hitler or the torturers of innocents; I believe that for example the self-described Catholic Jacob Rees-Mogg, will not find himself acceptable to God as he has shown nothing but contempt for "the man in the street" , and greed for money and position.

So...in your opinion....it’s only the ‘ good and nice ‘, who go to heaven. Many churches have preached this for years....in my experience. Also at school, I remember it well.

Thank the Lord for Jesus....who came to free us from that way of thinking. Otherwise, anyone who hasn’t ‘ practiced’ being good, would never have the chance of redemption.

I do remember one preacher years ago, saying we’re going to be surprised when we get to heaven. There’ll be some pretty unsavoury characters there! Only in our opinion though, and not God’s.

He wants people to make up their own minds, and therefore no one will be there by default.

Blondiescot

So why would any loving 'god' allow such evil to take place? This is a question which I have asked many, many times over the years, and to which no-one has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory answer. Did 'god' not make man in his own image, and if so, does that not mean 'god' is inherently evil too?

I'm not part of any organised religion - I think they have done so much harm historically and in the present with their dogma - but I have my own relationship with God, and my answer would be, that no, God didn't make man in his image, he allowed evolution to populate the earth, and allowed all the creatures on it free will and values a spider just as much as a human. If there is free will rather than pre-programming, then there will sadly always be people who choose evil rather than good.

God doesn't, in my opinion, condone that.

But this world - again my opinion - is not more than a "stage" or "training ground" where God hopes we will learn the values of compassion, endurance, forgiveness etc.

I believe those who try their best to do good and to do no harm, will at the end of their lives go to God and be allowed to remain with Him & all their loved ones who've reached Him before or come after.

And those who have been evil, cruel, prospered at the cost of others will be dealt with in whatever way God sees fit: I have no idea what that entails but I know I hope never to have to face it.

And it's not just the mass murderers like Hitler or the torturers of innocents; I believe that for example the self-described Catholic Jacob Rees-Mogg, will not find himself acceptable to God as he has shown nothing but contempt for "the man in the street" , and greed for money and position.

Blondiescot, I'm with you on that. It is too simplistic to blame "satan" for evil, a cop out if you like. Evil people exist, people do things to others, to their own, which goes against human nature and the instinct to protect, but to suggest they do this because of the influence of Satan is in a way excusing these perpetrators.

So, reading the beginning of this thread, is there anyone at all who could possibly think it is open to a debate about it's good/bad definition?

HolySox

Blondiescot

HolySox, sorry to disappoint you, but that just sounds like the same of crock of sh*t I've heard for years...

Problem with accepting the gospel is acknowledging we are individually wrong. Naturally we all see ourselves as 'good'. Certainly no GN would sell their child, and certainly not to a paedophile.
Personally I am very uncomfortable with a pregnant woman allowing someone to pierce her womb, tear her baby's body to death and suction it away as rubbish. Contentious maybe but our perception of 'good' and 'bad' differ widely.

That was well put HolySox. You’re better with words than me.

Blondiescot

*HolySox*, sorry to disappoint you, but that just sounds like the same of crock of sh*t I've heard for years...

Problem with accepting the gospel is acknowledging we are individually wrong. Naturally we all see ourselves as 'good'. Certainly no GN would sell their child, and certainly not to a paedophile.
Personally I am very uncomfortable with a pregnant woman allowing someone to pierce her womb, tear her baby's body to death and suction it away as rubbish. Contentious maybe but our perception of 'good' and 'bad' differ widely.

tickingbird

*Holy Sox*. What do you mean by God being mindful of the Jews?

Hitler tried to wipe the Jews out but failed.
Some look at the formation of modern Israel as being Biblical prophecy being fulfilled.

One train of thought for regarding others as evil is that by doing so, we set them apart from ourselves. They have done whatever, because they are evil. 'I' could never contemplate doing such a thing because unlike them, 'I' am not evil.

I feel as you do AGAA about some being born inherently evil.

There appears to be no way of preventing these acts of cruelty and depravity, if there were they wouldn't be happening. Human kind baffles me too Mattsmum sometimes I hear things that restore my faith in humanity, other times I despair.

tickingbird I understand and somewhat agree with what you say about the death penalty but then the decision is with this case, who would receives it: the mother or / and the man perpetrating the crime.

I started to read the other comments in the thread but then started to skip most as I see a discussion about God bares no relevance to what tickingbird thread is actually about. No one should be justifying, through religion, what these two people have done.

Holy Sox. What do you mean by God being mindful of the Jews?

HolySox, sorry to disappoint you, but that just sounds like the same of crock of sh*t I've heard for years...

The only reason these monsters are not put to death is to protect the justice system from general evil such as the death penalty itself.

Blondiescot

So why would any loving 'god' allow such evil to take place? This is a question which I have asked many, many times over the years, and to which no-one has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory answer. Did 'god' not make man in his own image, and if so, does that not mean 'god' is inherently evil too?

Yes, God should get rid of evil. But who should He get rid of? From His perspective ALL of us. We are all evil (sinners) to some degree or another.
As an example He did get rid of everyone, except Noah and his family in the flood. But here we are again in a world full of evil people.
The God wrote down a law for the Israelites. All they had to do was follow them and He would bless and keep them. What a disaster that turned out to be (Old Testament) - although He is perhaps still mindful of the Jews today. Point is being told what to do didn't work.
The problem is we are all corrupt (sin entered the world through Adam and Eve, courtesy of Satan). But God has provided a solution in Jesus. There is a resurrection and a judgement to come. The story isn't over.
Jesus used the parable of wheat needing to grow with the chaff. We will be sorted at the end of age by the angels when Christ returns. So yes, God allows the present world and it's evil to continue to allow people time to choose. Those that call on the name of Jesus will be saved. Through Jesus the Holy Spirit can come to us personally and free us from sin, beginning a work of salvation. Good news!
I hope this might offer a better answer to your question than you've heard before.

Germanshepherdsmum

I agree DD. I used to go to Church but haven’t done so for many years now. I found the churchgoers I met to be mainly ‘of a type’. It’s how you live your life that matters, and I pray daily - though as I was taught, only for others not for myself.

I don’t find it difficult to reconcile the existence of God with the evil which happens in this life. We know from the Bible that both good and evil exist and that in this life people have freedom of choice as to which they indulge in.

Yes GSM...my MIL used to call them ‘ church people ‘. We all knew what she meant. We have very dear ‘ normal ‘ Christian friends, but they’re in the minority.

I agree DD. I used to go to Church but haven’t done so for many years now. I found the churchgoers I met to be mainly ‘of a type’. It’s how you live your life that matters, and I pray daily - though as I was taught, only for others not for myself.

I don’t find it difficult to reconcile the existence of God with the evil which happens in this life. We know from the Bible that both good and evil exist and that in this life people have freedom of choice as to which they indulge in.

Blondiescot

DiscoDancer1975

Blondiescot

DiscoDancer1975
"In the meantime, He doesn’t interfere. That’s why we pray. Satan is responsible for the bad things. The hard bit is getting people to believe it."

Oh please, so he can just sit there and wash his hands of all the evil and blame 'satan'? How convenient.
I just cannot for the life of me comprehend how anyone can see such horrendous, evil acts and yet still believe in some supposedly all-loving 'god' - and I'm talking about all so-called gods of whatever religion.
And please don't tell me it's all for some supposed higher purpose after we all kick the bucket. Allowing innocent children to suffer horrendous pain and torment is just evil, pure and simple. A loving 'god' could stop that...hence why no-one has been able to answer my question, and never will.

I know it’s hard to grasp. You’re in the camp of many more than I am. It took me until I was 35. The picture is so much bigger than what we see. It’s only because of God....that we’re able to recognise evil.

Sorry I can’t put it better than that, not in words anyway.

You don't need to. I was dragged along to church by my grandmother for many years, read my bible etc etc. As soon as I was old enough to start asking questions, which never got satisfactory answers, I saw through it all.

Oh definitely. Church and Christianity are two very different things. We haven’t been to church for ten years. Full of self righteous hypocrites.

Jesus is who we follow....no man

Thank you for the link.

Link to the Jonathan Freedland article
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/31/ghislaine-maxwell-case-question-why-human-wickedness?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

It is a depressing thought though isn't it, that try as we might, either by education or by harsh punishment, nothing we do can prevent evil acts.

Some people are inherently evil. Why do some feel they have to do it in the name of a god, God’s will etc? Probably means their conscience is clear as they see it! Human kind baffles me which is why I look after those I love and who love me first and foremost. Innocent people who are abused and killed, of any age, deserve justice, any kind.

Some people are beyond redemption or rehabilitation, in my opinion.
Very few, and who knows why?
Nature or nurture?
I'm clear in my mind what should happen to them.

Me too.

DiscoDancer1975

Blondiescot

DiscoDancer1975
"In the meantime, He doesn’t interfere. That’s why we pray. Satan is responsible for the bad things. The hard bit is getting people to believe it."

Oh please, so he can just sit there and wash his hands of all the evil and blame 'satan'? How convenient.
I just cannot for the life of me comprehend how anyone can see such horrendous, evil acts and yet still believe in some supposedly all-loving 'god' - and I'm talking about all so-called gods of whatever religion.
And please don't tell me it's all for some supposed higher purpose after we all kick the bucket. Allowing innocent children to suffer horrendous pain and torment is just evil, pure and simple. A loving 'god' could stop that...hence why no-one has been able to answer my question, and never will.

I know it’s hard to grasp. You’re in the camp of many more than I am. It took me until I was 35. The picture is so much bigger than what we see. It’s only because of God....that we’re able to recognise evil.

Sorry I can’t put it better than that, not in words anyway.

You don't need to. I was dragged along to church by my grandmother for many years, read my bible etc etc. As soon as I was old enough to start asking questions, which never got satisfactory answers, I saw through it all.