Do you feel comfortable poaching health staff from the Philippines

I thought your post says “trained at very high cost by *poor” countries”.

We are not just talking about the Philippines here.

As said, the 'cost' is not just in money terms.

Not quite sure what your point is when the OP was talking about the UK “poaching’ from the Philippines.

Ok, what are the other costs of medical staff leaving a country where there are no paid jobs for them and moving to another country that will pay for medical care?

I have explained in a previous post- for many countries, including currently the UK- huge shortages.

How would you feel if (and it is actually the case) recruting drives from agencies 'bribing' and strongly encouraging UK doctors and nurses to go and work in Dubai, the USA, Germany and Switzerland and other rich countries.

And nurses? The fee paid for tuition is just a very small % of the training cost anyhow- but the highest cost is shortages and all the ensuing results.

Kali2

I have explained in a previous post- for many countries, including currently the UK- huge shortages.

How would you feel if (and it is actually the case) recruting drives from agencies 'bribing' and strongly encouraging UK doctors and nurses to go and work in Dubai, the USA, Germany and Switzerland and other rich countries.

And nurses? The fee paid for tuition is just a very small % of the training cost anyhow- but the highest cost is shortages and all the ensuing results.

Kali2 other Countries have been recruiting NHS workers from the U.K. for at least 40 years.

The agencies have regular recruitment drives in hotels.

Asian Countries particularly Philippines and Thailand have not got jobs for their trained medics/nurses.

How would you feel if (and it is actually the case) recruting drives from agencies 'bribing' and strongly encouraging UK doctors and nurses to go and work in Dubai, the USA, Germany and Switzerland and other rich countries.

It happens. Australia actively recruited British doctors, nurses, midwives. So did Canada.
Another poster has described New Zealand as poaching her GP daughter.

WA health system: More than 200 UK doctors to arrive in Western Australia, WA Government to ‘take all we can’
Charlotte Elton
The West Australian
Tue, 10 August 2021 7:35AM

~When I went off to London to work in an NHS Trust & was in staff accommodation, I was one of the least connected people in my building or in my department. Many Phillipinos lived there & knew each other often because they had small children, would have birthday parties in the communal room etc. Most people from abroad in the dept had family members in London. I didn't know anyone in London (came from 100 miles away).It is up to everyone how they live and there aren't the jobs in the Phillipines & it just gives them an extra overseas choice. Merchant navy, cruise lines, other countries' healthcare, lots of American maids & nannies come from the Phillipines, I doubt boosting the number the NHS recruits is going to change the number working overseas by much, if it all.Do I think it's ideal for them & their country? No but we dont live in an ideal world.

Many nurses from Philipines and Africa, etc, came without family and left their children behind to be looked after by relatives too.

Not an ideal world - but the point I am making is that we 'poach' from them, and others 'poach' from us, by offering better conditions and much higher salaries - and the effect is on us too, in so many ways. And yes, it has been going on for decades and more. When I was in hospital after a severe car accident in Switzerland- several of the nurses were from UK (and France) - that was in 1970.

Yes, it as always happened.

Is poaching an appropriate word?
People move around the world of their own free will generally speaking.

Perhaps 'poaching' is not the correct word. But many nurses and doctors do not come without being very actively recruited, with large incentives of every kind- by very active drives. And therefore 'poaching' does come close.

The point, again, being that for some countries, the 'recruiting' goes the other way round and the 'poor' country is the UK.

It's a bit of a vicious circle with UK-trained staff, some leave because of the working conditions in the NHS, generally quite stressful for clinical staff in what's already a stressful job.If we had less problems recruiting & there wasn't so much brinkmanship, we might do better at retaining - it's not always the pay package & incentives that leads people to work abroad.

Yes, of course- made that very clear above.

Kali2

Well it certainly costs the UK a lot of money to train doctors- I can assure you the yearly fees only covers a very small proportion. But 'cost' can be counted in very many ways- not just pecuniary.

When UK doctors choose to go to work in countries with better facilities, conditions and salaries elsewhere- it costs the country in much bigger ways than money- a shortage, which costs lives- and puts even more pressure on doctors and nurses- a vicious circle.

These people have also sacrificed personally to train as medics.not just financially and usually have worked within the NHS as well as need to be signed off fully or specialised so will
Have done their time and given back!

It really is up to them unless you ladies who are against the so called poaching, believe in enforcing them to only stay in their own country… which will do wonders for the current recruitment and retention difficulties we already face!

It is very complex indeed. Doctors only have a 1 year residency before being fully qualified. But I think it would be fair to ask for a 5 year minimum 'give back'.

It certainly does cost the UK a lot of money to train nurses too- and a minimum 5 year residency would be fair too. But mainly, what is required to retain either- would be to take pressure off them and the NHS and better pay. On News tonight a the Head of UK Nursing talking about nurses being on 13th, 13 hour shift in a row. THAT is appalling.

I don’t nderstand the bit about 1 year residency. Are you talking about the UK?

Yes.

,Kali2 do you mean the House Officer year? UK doctors aren’t fully qualified after that, they are only one year out of medical school, and do more exams to progress up the grades. It would be very unusual for any doctor to seek work in another country until they have completed their senior house officer rotation scheme as well, which is typically another two years or more.

They don’t have to come, they have a choice.

Think you’re confusing it with where you live. There is no one year residency programme in the NHS. Getting qualified takes a lot longer than that.

It is wrong to pick out the youngest and best of poor people to service affluent people . Poor people whether at home or
abroad should have their living standards raised so they have genuine choices regarding where and how they will work.

It seems certain enough that people would prefer to remain with their families than to travel across the globe to work away from their homes.

It seems certain enough that people would prefer to remain with their families than to travel across the globe to work away from their homes.

I don't think that is true.
People have always travelled, explored, emigrated.

Nowhere remains static.

Peasblossom

Think you’re confusing it with where you live. There is no one year residency programme in the NHS. Getting qualified takes a lot longer than that.

No, in the NHS registration after qualifying is one year. Of course, GP and other rotations are usually 3 years, and many more qualifications can be obtained at later stage.

No. If you look at the BMA website you’ll read that all medical graduates must complete the two year Foundation course before qualifying.

That’s then followed by further years of specialisation, including GP status.