Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

The new catch phrase of today 'the diplomatic clout of semolina'

There is a video clip on BBC
news. I suggest you watch it. He explains there has been confusion in the reporting and had nothing to do with NATO.

That was for growstuff

Jaberwok

Of course life is sacrosanct, BUT, should we have given way to Napoleon and allowed him to over run Europe? Given way to the Kaiser and allowed him to over run France attack Russia and eventually us in these Islands or a humiliating peace deal. Last but by no means least Hitler and all a peace deal with him would have entailed? You allow a bully to ride roughshod and they will always come back for more. A dilemma indeed.

Today's military reality just cannot be compared with today's.

Neither Napoleon, nor Kaiser, or Hitler- had nuclear weapons.

Yes, I've just watched it and listened very carefully to the words he chose. There's a lot of sabre rattling and nobody wants to lose face.

Kali2

Jaberwok

Of course life is sacrosanct, BUT, should we have given way to Napoleon and allowed him to over run Europe? Given way to the Kaiser and allowed him to over run France attack Russia and eventually us in these Islands or a humiliating peace deal. Last but by no means least Hitler and all a peace deal with him would have entailed? You allow a bully to ride roughshod and they will always come back for more. A dilemma indeed.

Today's military reality just cannot be compared with today's.

Neither Napoleon, nor Kaiser, or Hitler- had nuclear weapons.

I suspect we all value the lives of our armed forces more, too. Nobody in a civilised country would be willing or able to "send its troops over the top".

Yes you're right growstuff,attitudes are very different today, at least in the West, less so in the East, but if push came to real shove, then I guess the bullet would have to be bitten. Lucky the war ended when it did as Germany was certainly on the verge of superior weaponry.

MayBee70 and Kali2 Thank you, lets hope all of this comes to nothing and all side return home safely.

Jaberwok

Yes you're right growstuff,attitudes are very different today, at least in the West, less so in the East, but if push came to real shove, then I guess the bullet would have to be bitten. Lucky the war ended when it did as Germany was certainly on the verge of superior weaponry.

I don't agree. Germany lost WW2 after Stalingrad and by the inter of 1943, ordinary Germans knew they'd lost. Germany was critically low in resources, including food, there's no way it could have hung on, unless there had been some major annexation of land and there was no chance that was going to happen.

V1 and V11 could have made all the difference to Germany's fortunes had they been perfected and enhanced earlier on in the War. Had the war not ended when it did who knows what the effect these silent killer's could have made.

Japan was finished too, but some we itching to use their new weapons and see what would happen. Madmen.

Those new toys have changed and been refined, much more precise, targetted. A new mad man is perhaps desperate to see what can be done.

I hope not.

Am I really the only CND member on GN?

Kali I don't think Putin is mad. I think he's an intelligent man and a good strategist. He has the upper hand at the moment and he's playing with other leaders. Of course he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO because foreign troops would then have the right to mobilise on Russia's border. He'll do anything to rattle cages and seem threatening, but I think Tom Tugendhat is right. He wouldn't be able to sustain a full-scale attack on Ukraine and to hold his position. He'll huff and puff, make himself look like the big, hard man and play games with weak leaders. The only one who has any chance is Olaf Scholz. Constitutionally, Germany is forbidden from declaring war, but it can threaten sanctions, especially concerning Nord Stream. The West needs Russia's gas, but Russia also needs its export markets and Germany can control that. Russia also has a bankrupt economy and only survives because it invests abroad. Foreign governments could put a stop to that. Sanctions would certainly be painful for some in the West, but less so than having troops killed in battle. Above all, the West needs to stop sniping at each other. Divisions are playing straight into Putin's hands.

Jaberwok

V1 and V11 could have made all the difference to Germany's fortunes had they been perfected and enhanced earlier on in the War. Had the war not ended when it did who knows what the effect these silent killer's could have made.

Winning a war (and the peace) is about more than having the most effective weapons.

We can't intervene militarily - we don't have the capacity as a result of funding cuts over past decades and of course there are nuclear weapons to consider. Johnson et al are playing big on the world stage as politicians often do when they are in trouble at home. Energy supplies have changed the game in Europe.

Good - German and French diplomacy seems to have succeeded.

Of course a way to go yet, but it is hopefully the beginning of the end of the crises.

This has been put out by U.K. Government

Kali2

Japan was finished too, but some we itching to use their new weapons and see what would happen. Madmen.

Those new toys have changed and been refined, much more precise, targetted. A new mad man is perhaps desperate to see what can be done.

I hope not.

Am I really the only CND member on GN?

I was CND but switched to a multilateral disarmament group when someone said it was like walking naked into the negotiating room. We were all convinced our phones were being tapped. It’s still beyond me why we can’t all live at peace with each other and put all of our effort into making the world a better place, not just for us but for all the animals and insects and plants and oceans ?

Germany and France can't do anything their gas supplies would be cut off nothing to do with diplomacy more fear. What a situation for them to be in.

GrannyGravy13

This has been put out by U.K. Government

Pleased to see the rhetoric is less belligerent than previously.

Maudi

Germany and France can't do anything their gas supplies would be cut off nothing to do with diplomacy more fear. What a situation for them to be in.

And so what and how do you think the recent talks with Germany and France were about then?

growstuff

Kali I don't think Putin is mad. I think he's an intelligent man and a good strategist. He has the upper hand at the moment and he's playing with other leaders. Of course he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO because foreign troops would then have the right to mobilise on Russia's border. He'll do anything to rattle cages and seem threatening, but I think Tom Tugendhat is right. He wouldn't be able to sustain a full-scale attack on Ukraine and to hold his position. He'll huff and puff, make himself look like the big, hard man and play games with weak leaders. The only one who has any chance is Olaf Scholz. Constitutionally, Germany is forbidden from declaring war, but it can threaten sanctions, especially concerning Nord Stream. The West needs Russia's gas, but Russia also needs its export markets and Germany can control that. Russia also has a bankrupt economy and only survives because it invests abroad. Foreign governments could put a stop to that. Sanctions would certainly be painful for some in the West, but less so than having troops killed in battle. Above all, the West needs to stop sniping at each other. Divisions are playing straight into Putin's hands.

I think you are right- I so hope so. My concern is that the divided West will all try to outdo each other at rattling his cage.

And I totally agree with this ''Above all, the West needs to stop sniping at each other. Divisions are playing straight into Putin's hands.''

Neither is the pseudo 'competition' all trying to out-do each other in talks and negotiations.

And Russian interference into Brexit was not for nothing either.

Mr.Putin will be the only winner, if he withdraws he will say that he wound up the west with just a few troop manoeuvres. Makes him look strong at home.

If he invades Ukraine he will say that he has been provoked by the western governments/NATO

He has enjoyed the west fawning over him and sending delegations.

The only way to win with a bully is to stand up to him

German chancellor has told Putin, that there is no thought by the west to expand NATO into Ukraine as long as himself and Putin are in power.

He then went on to say “ of course we won’t be in power for ever”

Good diplomacy as Ukraine cannot join NATO - one of the reasons is because it is at war with its Russian separatists. The separatists won’t go away all the time they have Putin’s backing.

Once Putin goes - then who knows.

Win/win

The trick with compromises is to make it appear that nobody loses face. The promise that Ukraine won't join NATO (for the time being at least) does that. Putin has lost the moral high ground.