Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Indeed WWmk2- but we are divided. The UK made sure of that.

Whitewavemark2

Now is not the time to be divided.

Putin has worked hard for this to happen in Europe and looks as if he is succeeding.

We are cleverer than that ( or should be).

We should use soft power to strike back. We have the resources and the willingness from both USA and Europe.

Remember divided we fall.

Don’t be a fool and play Putins he game

I totally agree with your post Whitewavemark2

The whole of Europe needs to be together on this, regardless of whether or not they are reliant on Russian gas pipes.

They need to speak with one voice, and be prepared to back up their words.

Are the French and German subscriptions up to date within NATO yet? I recall Trump calling them out on that.

Kali2

Indeed WWmk2- but we are divided. The UK made sure of that.

Utter rubbish, the U.K. army is still training EU army personnel, in Europe and on exercises all over the world.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the U.K. is in the EU.

I’m sure that given good diplomacy, those who are prevaricating can be persuaded. France and Spain are the obvious ones to try to change minds.

Chewbacca

^We are a military family, I think I am aware of the different world probably more so than^ the majority.

Nothing more irritating than someone trying to teach you to suck eggs is their GG13?

Hear, Hear!

I do take the point about those posters whose family has a history of military service, but this is a political issue which Putin is determined to resolve with his military.

UK's February 2020 negotiation guidelines omitted foreign, security and defence policy cooperation, stating that such
areas did 'not require an institutionalised relationship'.

Arguably, this contributed to a difficult start in the relationship.
Theresa May's Conservative government (2016-2019) viewed the notion of a security and defence partnership more favourably than Boris Johnson's (in office since July 2019, also Conservative), and in 2018 had proposed 'an ambitious partnership covering thebreadth of security interests including
foreign policy, defence, development'. For the moment, discussions on such aspects of the future relationship appear to be 'absent in Westminster and Whitehall'. The initial assumption, according to the Centre for European Reform, 'was tha tit would be easier to reach agreement on foreign and
defence policy co-operation than on other issues'.

Similarly, Jim Cloos, former Deputy Director General in the General Secretariat of the Council of the EU, argued that foreign policy and security seemed to be candidates for an immediate agreement because of the close relationship and the
UK's importantrole. British opposition to formalising cooperation could be explained by the perception that the EU
institutional frameworks for external security cooperation offer 'few incentives for the UK', compared to other, more flexible formats (ad hoc coalitions). The EU's proposals for possible foreign and security policy cooperation with the UK include several areas such as coordination in multilateral organisations, sanctions, crisis management, capability development, intelligence, and development. To this end, the Deputy Secretary General of the European External Action Service (EEAS), Charles Fries, argued before the European Parliament's Subcommittee on Security and
Defence (SEDE) in May 2021 that, 'there is huge potential todevelop a relationship with the UK once
London is ready to engage in a discussionon security and defence with us.'' (Official EU document on Brexit implications to European security).

This has not happened yet- and so the relationship with the EU on security matters remains vague and 'up in the air'. Which means that engaging in probably the most dangerous war ever, with a psychopath with his finger ont he nuclear button- is not advisable. Putin knows this, tragically.

Little Chicken and sucking eggs just won't help here.

Whitewavemark2

I do take the point about those posters whose family has a history of military service, but this is a political issue which Putin is determined to resolve with his military.

I agree that those this side of Mr. Putins 100,000+ troops would like it to be a diplomatic issue.

Unfortunately I am not convinced that Mr. Putin views the situation in the same light. He wants to get back to the glory days of the USSR and if he manages to retake any former Soviet States that will ensure he stays in power.

Kali2 you can cut and paste as much as you like, it will not alter anything.

It could make some realise that the situation is indeed very dangerous, and that the UK is not in a firm and solid relationship with the rest of Europe, even within NATO.

Said it before, MAD has worked so far since WW2. It got us over the Cold War. But many have been fully aware ever since, that MAD will only work until a Psychopath or two, like Putin (could have been Trump) get involved and want to test it as a legacy.

The current situation is also being called MAD by many- Mutually Assured Delusion.

Do you really think that the UK, on its knees due to the Covid-Brexit combination- and isolated from the rest of Europe, is in a position to get involved in the most dangerous and destructive war ever, with a madman? We have never truly recovered from Blair's decision to join with the US without Europe.

Flag waving will not alter this at all.

Kali2 I think you should read other posters posts.

Nobody is suggesting that the U.K. will go it alone as you posted.

They are just pointing out that NATO has far more clout than the EU.

Kali2

Flag waving will not alter this at all.

Well you are certainly waving the EU flag

Yes. Putin cut his teeth on the end of the Cold War when he was in the KCB. He watched as Russian influence was lost (1991) in countries that became independent like Ukraine, Georgia and others. He is determined to regain Russian influence in all these countries and has been working towards this for many, many years.

He has always seen the European economic community as a block to Russian influence in the ex-soviet countries and has worked constantly to de-stabilise Europe.

NATO and EU are two entirely different entities.

One is a Military union the other is a economic free trade union.

You are talking about apples and pears.

Goodness me Kali2 “UK on its knees” ?
What hyperbolic nonsense you do spout at times.

Whitewavemark2

Yes. Putin cut his teeth on the end of the Cold War when he was in the KCB. He watched as Russian influence was lost (1991) in countries that became independent like Ukraine, Georgia and others. He is determined to regain Russian influence in all these countries and has been working towards this for many, many years.

He has always seen the European economic community as a block to Russian influence in the ex-soviet countries and has worked constantly to de-stabilise Europe.

As much as I am against fracking, if the U.K. were to do this we could be self sufficient in gas and not be reliant on Russian gas via Germany/EU.

In my opinion Mr. Putin along with China are looking to change the world order whilst the rest of us have been concentrating on the Pandemic.

Yes apples and pears WWmk2 but annoyingly the UK weren’t allowed to fly over German airspace to reach the Ukraine.

Quite a stance for a purely trading bloc.

GrannyGravy13

Kali2

Flag waving will not alter this at all.

Well you are certainly waving the EU flag

Absolutely NOT! NOT in any way, shape or form.

I will put my hands up here- I am and have always been a pacifist and a proud member of CND- and always been fully aware that the concept of MAD would only work until mad men get involved, and prepared to try it for their psychopathic egos.

Yes Whitewavemk2- and this makes him VERY dangerous indeed. He knows that, and will use it. And the reason he played a sick game behind the Brexit campaign- as a divided Europe suits his aims perfectly, with the UK cut off (and of their own accord too).

Urmstongran

Yes apples and pears WWmk2 but annoyingly the UK weren’t allowed to fly over German airspace to reach the Ukraine.

Quite a stance for a purely trading bloc.

No you are getting sovereignty muddled with a free Trade union.

Germany receives 32% of its gas from Russia, as well as other vital commodities like oil.

This is the problem. The USA has offered to step up supply to Germany but it would mean building the infrastructure needed.

However, this reliance. On Russia for various commodities has been warned about for some time, and perhaps it is time that those in the west began to secure alternatives.

Militarily we are not isolated and we do not stand alone. We are, unlike some, fully paid up important members of NATO which most importantly and obviously includes the USA When it comes to military matters the EU is sadly lacking and, as in Bosnia, more hindrance than help with their endless bickering about who runs what, how and where, and frankly we are better off without them. There is no question of us going it alone with the U.S watching from the sidelines. As for the EU, the gas pipeline is more important than Ukraine and left to them Russia will be appeased which will be fine for a while until perhaps Poland is threatened or Hungary, when, like Hitler, Putin will eventually have to be faced.

Jaberwok

Militarily we are not isolated and we do not stand alone. We are, unlike some, fully paid up important members of NATO which most importantly and obviously includes the USA When it comes to military matters the EU is sadly lacking and, as in Bosnia, more hindrance than help with their endless bickering about who runs what, how and where, and frankly we are better off without them. There is no question of us going it alone with the U.S watching from the sidelines. As for the EU, the gas pipeline is more important than Ukraine and left to them Russia will be appeased which will be fine for a while until perhaps Poland is threatened or Hungary, when, like Hitler, Putin will eventually have to be faced.

Muddling two entities.

European countries are sovereign states and choose whether to belong to NATO or not. The EU has nothing to do with that decision. NATO is not within its sphere of influence.

There are thirty countries that belong to NATO, and the countries inside the EU are all members as well as the UK. Owing to their reliance on Russia for gas and oil they are indeed toothless tigers and Putin knows it which emboldens him to threaten and maybe even attack neighbouring countries who were once part of the Soviet block, and beyond, who knows. Being so dependent on a potential enemy for vital supplies was nothing short of madness in the first place and has sadly put Europe in a very difficult and dangerous position . Upset Russia = pipeline disruption, gas and oil.

Whitewavemark2

Now is not the time to be divided.

Putin has worked hard for this to happen in Europe and looks as if he is succeeding.

We are cleverer than that ( or should be).

We should use soft power to strike back. We have the resources and the willingness from both USA and Europe.

Remember divided we fall.

Don’t be a fool and play Putins he game

?

But this is where the cracks start to show as not all EU states are members of NATO.