Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Kali2, I've re read my post and any relevance to geography has escaped me! I don't think I made any reference to where anywhere was or their position to Ukraine or anywhere else come to that, so I simply don't know what you mean, can you explain? MS, I am baffled, understandably so I think! 90 tons of lethal aid has arrived from the US to Ukraine, good or bad? not too sure. UK aid has also arrived. Eeek!

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

I’m way ahead of all of you, into my second bottle trying to deaden my bruised head from the wall

Is it BYOB, Whitewave?

Don’t know what that means?

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

Whitewavemark2

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

You joined in with the bewilderment, Whitewave.

The problem is that a refusal to consider that facts may be wrong and a refusal to consider that other posters' facts may be correct results in frustration in the face such intransigence.

BYOB - bring your own bottle - a pre-requisite of parties these days apparently.

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

You joined in with the bewilderment, Whitewave.

The problem is that a refusal to consider that facts may be wrong and a refusal to consider that other posters' facts may be correct results in frustration in the face such intransigence.

BYOB - bring your own bottle - a pre-requisite of parties these days apparently.

But it wasn’t directed at kali for heavens sake! It wasn’t directed any any one poster. That is not how I function I’m afraid.

Arguing facts is acceptable, piling in isn’t, and I’ve seen it too often to feel comfortable with the silly behaviour.

And thank you for the explanation, I really should have known???

Just going to pour a ?
Or two.

Anyway, I can recommend today's Global Questions with Zienab Badawi to give a perspective on this from Ukraine.

Oh come on Whitewave, I think I am entitled to an explanation when I'm clearly accused of inaccurate comments I didn't make, unless you can show me differently. With respect, pots and kettles does come to mind .

What I’m talking about is the tendency to troll. If you are taking part in a reasonable debate or discussion then I absolutely support you, but not when it reduces to unpleasantness. The point that should be remembered that this has happened in the past and I think people should be more careful in their posts.

Dear Kali2, I have just come across this thread, and I fear that your obviously well-entrenched views on the UK’s military relationships with other European countries bear little relationship with reality. I won’t waste my time (and yours) by repeating what so many other posters have tried to convey to you over the past few pages about individual countries’ membership of NATO, as compared to the military aspirations of the EU bloc – because you simply won’t accept it. For my (many) sins over the years, I held fairly senior positions in the UK’s Ministry of Defence and at NATO headquarters, including membership of various committees dealing with NATO/EU matters. The perennial underlying theme of that relationship was that the French were both resentful of the US’s overwhelming military pre-eminence in NATO, and suspicious that the US might not – if and when the Russian ‘balloon went up’ in Europe – fulfil its collective defence obligations under Article 5 of the Treaty. Hence, France was always pushing the case for a vastly expanded “EU Army” organisation, run (inevitably) from Brussels, but (naturally) dominated by France. All the other European nations who were NATO members were in no doubt whatsoever that our ultimate salvation against a major Russian military threat lay with NATO, but (for appearances sake) were content to let France pursue its vanity project, and pay lip service to increased EU military integration, knowing well that it was not going to happen outside the NATO fold.

If, as you say, Brexit has resulted in the UK being divorced from European military ties, how does that square with the fact that, since 2018, French forces engaged in counter-terrorist operations in Mali have been supported by three RAF Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and several hundred personnel? On a larger scale, what about the ongoing ‘Combined Joint Expeditionary Force’ agreement between the UK and France? Looking at Northern Europe, how come the UK heads the ‘Joint Expeditionary Force’ (JEF) comprising units from Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, which took part in a major exercise recently? The JEF has been called a “force of friends, filling a hole in the security architecture of northern Europe between a national force and a NATO force.”

I could go on, but it’s very clear that the only thing the UK has forfeited militarily through Brexit is being dragged unwillingly into the bureaucratic (and toothless) nightmare that has always been the EU integrated military structure chimera. In this present potential crisis, we stand with the US and our fellow European members of NATO.
Hope you enjoyed Cabaret!

Pointing out inaccuracies is not a pile on.

GrannyGravy13

Pointing out inaccuracies is not a pile on.

I think you know what I mean.

Bodach excellent post

Whitewavemark2 what do you suggest?

Should we just ignore/gaslight inaccuracies?

I always try to be polite, I have not been rude towards anyone on this thread.

Whitewavemark2
You can call it a pile on if you want, I call it it counteracting lies that are being told about my country by someone resident in Switzerland.

Thank you for your input Bodach Much appreciated.

Excellent post Bodach. Explains everything perfectly.

Whitewavemark2

What I’m talking about is the tendency to troll. If you are taking part in a reasonable debate or discussion then I absolutely support you, but not when it reduces to unpleasantness. The point that should be remembered that this has happened in the past and I think people should be more careful in their posts.

There is no trolling on here, Whitewave

Well-known posters are trying to rebut falsehoods.

If the person posting falsehoods about this country, about NATO and about the EU will not consider that they might be wrong, then other posters will persist in correcting that misinformation.

It is dangerous rubbish.
Someone posting falsehoods about vaccines etc would soon have their posts deleted.

I think people should be more careful in their posts

I wholeheartedly agree, particularly when such patently wrong posts remain on the internet.

I am not piling on but I am astonished at your defence of such posts.

Thank you Bodach

Whitewavemark2
It’s obvious that your not worried about a blatant ( and ridiculous) lie being repeated over and over concerning our country. But it must be clear to you by now that a lot of posters do care very much.

Well done the UK ??

“Serhii Rakhmanin, a senior MP in Ukraine, said: “We are very grateful. The military supply from the UK looks like the most effective one and the most well-timed. For me personally, sadly, the German position was sorrowful. As we know Germany tells us it is a reliable partner, but does not act like this.”

Andriy Zagorodnyuk, an Oxford-educated former defence minister in Ukraine, said the country may have to resort to guerilla-style tactics if Russia invades, and this meant fast deliveries of light weaponry were crucial.

“It’s exactly what we need, the UK was very quick to move,” he said, referring to its provision of 2,000 anti-tank missile launchers and training from the British Army’s Ranger Regiment.”

I did like how Keir Starmer said how impressed he was with Ben Wallace (Defence Minister) - on top of his brief and very decisive.

Thank you Bodach for your excellent post last night. I it is so great to have someone who is prepared to discuss things calmly, rather than attack, and has someone mentionned above 'pile on' without adding anything of value.

I never said that the UK is now divorced (via Brexit) to EU military ties. I have said that it has changed due to Brexit, and that it has never really been properly redefined or realigned.
It is of course not the first time that the UK has followed the USA without Europe. Many will never forgive Blair for this. Not just in Irak, but Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia before this.

As for geography, comment which was derided, it is very different to act with allies on the other side of the world, without all those around you, who were previous allies and who have been officially rejected as such by Brexit.

Acting swifltly as the UK has done, with the USA, is remarkable. But it does further isolate us from our previous allies, and it does also puts the UK in a dangerous position with regard to Russia.

As for my comments on MAD, and the fact that many of us have had huge concerns about what would happen once one or more psychopaths get involved and enraged. Will MAD always protect us? I am afraid it might not. But thank you for your intelligent and informative response.

The Cabaret was great fun - a local troupe who each year produce a local Cabaret, to take the mick of our regional features and people, politicians or otherwise.

Well explained Bodach, thankyou.

This is from Reuters in November last year. To believe that the UK is NOT hugely reliant on EU energy and gas, which is linked to Russian supplies, is delusional. We all know how prices have shot up recently.

''HOW MUCH GAS DOES RUSSIA SUPPLY?

Europe relies on Russia for around 35% of its natural gas. The bulk comes through pipelines including Yamal, which goes through Belarus and Poland to Germany, Nord Stream, which goes directly to Germany, and pipelines going through Ukraine.

Europe’s internal gas markets are linked through a network of interconnecting pipelines. Not all countries get supply directly from Russia, but if countries such as Germany, the biggest consumer of Russian gas, see lower flows from Russia they must replace this from elsewhere such as Norway.

That has a knock-on effect on how much gas is available from other sources for other countries, and for transit.

Gas prices in Britain have been just as volatile as those in continental Europe on any news out of Russia, even though it only typically gets around 5% of its gas from Russia. Lower overall Russian supply to Europe means less could be available from its largest suppliers, like Norway.

Europe's energy chief says European countries have enough gas to meet their needs over the winter. The issue, however, is the price they will need to pay.''

So we are direclty reliant on Russian gas and energy, but even more so, indirectly, via other European countries. If your supplies are further limited, the UK will be in deep trouble too. Not just individuals with rising bills, but industry and the economy.

I find this far more scary than covid. It's not like a war would just be firing guns at each other. If one leader is angry enough to press the red button, then it's game over.

Last night we watched 'Munich: The Edge of War'! The similarities of Hitler at that point and Putin now were not lost on us!