Legacy of the fraudulent referendum

I have a story related to scrapping red tape.

My husband was H&S Officer for a Waste disposal company. He was very strict with the rules as people were working in dangerous surroundings and risk was high. The UK company was bought out by an American firm who wanted to cut corners. My husband refused and was made redundant and all the rules and processes he'd put in place were scrapped.

One week later there was an explosion at the factory and a man (my husband's best friend) was killed instantly.

Red tape is there to protect us. Those who seek to remove it aren't always doing it for good reason and they are seldom the ones to suffer when things go wrong.

Sorry to take you down a leafy lane, but this 'tear up red tape' aspect of Brexit worries me hugely. It is not always a good thing.

Cunco

Oh do leave off. A 'scant quarter of the population' including around 20m people not entitled to vote!

At the time of the Referendum, there were 46.5m people registered voters of whom 72.2% or 33.2m cast their vote.

At the time of the fraudulent referendum it was estimated that there were around 3 million EU citizens living here, many for most of their lives, working, paying taxes and contributing to our country in many ways, who were not entitled to vote.

That estimate has now been revised to around 5 million.

Of course we don't know for sure how they might have voted but I can tell that of the many I have spoken to, I have not heard one of them support brexit.

In a democracy no government can be elected without the support of the majority of those who voted Linclass

Democracy = rule of the majority.

As long as we elect our government by FPTP, we should not describe the UK as a democracy.

Because of our undemocratic FPTP electoral system we have a government party who got a "landslide" majority of eighty seats on the basis of a minority of votes.

Of course it is not possible for the Electoral System to challenge it as FPTP is the system we have, almost alone amongst European nations - the only other undemocratic country in Europe is Belarus.

Yes, fair enough, but you said "the majority of the people in the UK". And any way you cut it that was wrong. Just like the £350 million claim was wrong.

Oh do leave off. A 'scant quarter of the population' including around 20m people not entitled to vote!

At the time of the Referendum, there were 46.5m people registered voters of whom 72.2% or 33.2m cast their vote.

Ah, so now we want babes in arms to vote! Of course, I was referring to those who voted.

Why didn't you say that then? Oh I know. Because "the majority of the people in the UK" sounds much better than a "scant quarter of the population."

varian

The majority of people in the UK were not hoodwinked by the brexit liars - only 17m out of a population of 67m voted for this insanity.

The lies, cheating and foreign interference, combined with the power of the tax exile billionaires who control the rightwing press, managed to hoodwink just enough people on that one day.

It was outrageous that such a far reaching constitutional change could be made on the whim of a tiny number of voters and pushed through by an undemocratically elected government party which most voters voted against.

The damage to our country, to the futures of our children and grandchildren is incalcuable.

Please do elaborate, an undemocratic elected Government. Wonder the electoral commission didn’t have something to say . The Gov as bad as it is at present , was elected by the rules of our Country, not the rules you wish for.

Ah, so now we want babes in arms to vote! Of course, I was referring to those who voted.

The people, voters or not, did not authorise the Referendum, Parliament did and by a massive majority. I agree that it was a far-reaching constitutional change but, sadly, our own Parliament treated it with all the finesse of a drunk betting the house on a toss of a coin.

It seems our Parliamentary voting system is undemocratic so a government who wins by a large majority has no validity; but when we have a Referendum, the result can be ignored because those who vote are too easily led!

Claims of 'incalculable' damage of Brexit to future generations are to say the least 'incalculable'. It depends on how 'the ever closer union' develops and what our position would have been within the EU. Heseltine has at least been clear that, if we were to have influence within the EU, we must not be semi-detached, outside the eurozone. It would have been better at the time of the Referendum if Remain had argued this position. I suspect they didn't because they knew they would not win that argument.

At what point did we give up sovereignty of out own parliament?

I actually think that we're on the very edge of giving it up now, Maybee with manipulation of the Commons debate programme to give only minimum time for the scrutiny of important legislation and a PM who refuses to abide by the Ministerial Code for himself and his ministers.

The thing is, I don't think the Brexit voters who were swayed by the 'loss of sovereignty' argument had any idea about what Parliamentary Sovereignty actually means, or even thought that it has anything to do with Parliament.

I think they just had a vague notion that the UK was being bossed about by other countries and they didn't like it...

Cunco

If Brexit was never deliverable, why did Parliament overwhelmingly vote for the Referendum? If there was a confidence trick, it began there.

If Brexit was never deliverable, why were we given assurances in 1975 that if we wanted to leave the EU, we could simply repeal the treaty and leave?

What a low opinion those so fervently in favour of the unpopular 'ever closer union' must have of the majority of people in the UK that we could have been hoodwinked in 2016? Perhaps because over 40 years, we were hoodwinked by our own Parliament into giving up the sovereignty of our Parliament to gain a degree of influence within the 'ever-closer union'?

By the way, my last comment reflects the argument made by Edward Heath in 1975 explaining to Michael Foot why sovereignty should not be sacrosanct but used to gain influence. It remains the nub of the argument. On that one, I am still with Michael Foot.

At what point did we give up sovereignty of out own parliament?

The majority of people in the UK were not hoodwinked by the brexit liars - only 17m out of a population of 67m voted for this insanity.

The lies, cheating and foreign interference, combined with the power of the tax exile billionaires who control the rightwing press, managed to hoodwink just enough people on that one day.

It was outrageous that such a far reaching constitutional change could be made on the whim of a tiny number of voters and pushed through by an undemocratically elected government party which most voters voted against.

The damage to our country, to the futures of our children and grandchildren is incalcuable.

What a low opinion those so fervently in favour of the unpopular 'ever closer union' must have of the majority of people in the UK that we could have been hoodwinked in 2016

I'm saying nothing....

BTW - majority of people who voted, not the same as the majority of people in the UK.

If Brexit was never deliverable, why did Parliament overwhelmingly vote for the Referendum? If there was a confidence trick, it began there.

If Brexit was never deliverable, why were we given assurances in 1975 that if we wanted to leave the EU, we could simply repeal the treaty and leave?

What a low opinion those so fervently in favour of the unpopular 'ever closer union' must have of the majority of people in the UK that we could have been hoodwinked in 2016? Perhaps because over 40 years, we were hoodwinked by our own Parliament into giving up the sovereignty of our Parliament to gain a degree of influence within the 'ever-closer union'?

By the way, my last comment reflects the argument made by Edward Heath in 1975 explaining to Michael Foot why sovereignty should not be sacrosanct but used to gain influence. It remains the nub of the argument. On that one, I am still with Michael Foot.

How on earth can you have misunderstood that?

Probably above her paygrade, growstuff

Urmstongran

Apologies growstuff I made an error. It wasn’t cross-party but cross-government.

“We are also conducting a major cross-government drive to review and reform this inherited law more quickly”

So a Tory shake up of its own systems?

Led by pro-small state, libertarian fanatics, who couldn't give a stuff about the rights of the people!

How on earth can you have misunderstood that?

Urmstongran

Swathes of stuff probably Gill57 that isn’t necessary. I’m not a government official. That question is above my pay grade so I rely on ‘those who know’ and get well paid for it to determine what can be scrapped.

How can you possibly know what needs to be scrapped if you haven't the faintest notion of what exists? And what makes you so sure that safety guidelines won't be scrapped?

I could say more about the idiocy of voting for something that you don't have a clue about...

This article is more than two years old but is still so true.

"Brexit, the most pointless, masochistic ambition in our country's history, is done"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done

Its not just people in Brittany who take dogs onto no dogs beaches - Ive seen plenty in the UK too, plus the amount of litter and disgusting sewage in the sea - the idea that we all obey the rules - they don't- is the stuff of Brexit lies.

I am amazed that those who voted leave continue to think this particular cabinet and brexit is still the wonderful stuff of which their lies were made. It must be the rose-coloured glasses they wear, though it's probably down to the size of their amygdalas!

Cummings was charged with getting the electorate to vote leave. I think he is the type of person who will, once given a goal to reach, do his utmost to achieve it. Emotions and fears were targeted but in reality no valuable benefits can be shown.

Both sides have said they voted the way they did for the sake of their children and grandchildren.

I recall Urmstongran saying it could take about 40 years to be sorted out and she was happy with that. But in 40 years we will be dead, our children will be pensioners and our grandchildren middle-aged.

Our children and grandchildren (especially those who were older but not of voting age in 2016) are left with a UK they didn't want. This government and those who voted it in have utterly trashed any standing we had in the world and yet are still under the illusion everything is fine.

Sue Grey's report just out will be interesting, should we ever get to read the full transcript.

Dogs don't have to be banned from a beach in order for it to have a Blue Flag award, their access has to be strictly controlled. And the Blue Flag is nothing to do with the EU it's operated by an organisation based in Denmark www.blueflag.global/our-programme
It seemsto me to be an admirable organisation.

"The Daily Express leads the cheer for what they describe as a

“£1BN mega-Brexit bonfire TODAY - hated EU red tape to be annihilated”

( And hasn’t the Express found a photo of Johnson looking particularly pleased with himself to mark the event. )

Quick question before I go out and join the celebration.

How does the estimated annihilation of £1 billion in red tape, that hasn’t happen yet been delivered, compare to the estimated £ 7.5 billion in additional customs - red tape - paperwork costs for British businesses?"

Marc Carter
brexitactually.quora.com/?__nsrc__=4&__snid3__=32081465256

Blue flag beaches, don't get me started. For years we lived near a blue flag beach in Brittany where every weekend dogs of all varieties would be produced out of beach bags, and charcoal barbecues would be set up without anyone raising an eyebrow. Back in Devon 2021 during lockdown when the place was empty, no visitors, I wasn't allowed to take the dogs on our blue flag beach. That's what annoys me about regulations. Other countries have them, but they don't abide by them like we are expected to. We are often laughed at in this respect.

Translation .... the little girl is saying to her dog, " I told you so, we should have stayed in Brittany" - where no one obeys the rules. And this is a poster put out by Brittany tourism!

I am just curious as to which regulations and red tape have made your life difficult Urmonstongran, which ones you would like to see removed. Not being argumentative, just curious. Do remember that a lot of so called health and safety regulation isn't so, in fact there is a great website called www.hse.gov.uk>myth.

Swathes of stuff probably Gill57 that isn’t necessary. I’m not a government official. That question is above my pay grade so I rely on ‘those who know’ and get well paid for it to determine what can be scrapped.

Apologies growstuff I made an error. It wasn’t cross-party but cross-government.

“We are also conducting a major cross-government drive to review and reform this inherited law more quickly”