Official tonight 'Brexit is NOT done'

We live in the UK of GB and NI

I agree. Wales is a country. ... In fact, in 2008 the Welsh Government issued a statement to clarify the position:
"Wales is not a principality. Although we are joined with England by land, and we are part of Great Britain, Wales is a country in its own right.”

GrannyRose15

Petera

GrannyRose15

Petera

So what word would you have used? If I am showing my political preferences by using English correctly, I obviously need lessons in obfuscation.

In fact I would just have said "Northern Ireland".

But I'm still interested in whether or not you think England is a country.

Of course it's a country. What else would it be?

Actually, I rather like the idea of it not being a country at all. Then calling myself "English" would be equivalent to calling myself "Cornish". And quite distinct from calling myself "British". Or maybe you would say Great Britain isn't a country either, so none of us is British - we'd have to be United Kingdomish.

I think I'm losing the plot.

I agree that England is a country, but then the dictionary definition you, yourself, posted in support of using the word ‘province’ for NI says that a country has its own government. England does not have its own government.

?

“Brexit is not your friend.
It is stealing from you
and trashing the country you call home.
It is a lie, was based on lies, continues to lie, and has given us a government of liars.
Never accept this.
We must and will reverse it.”

“England does not have its own government.”

Westminster governs the whole of Britain including NI, each of the devolved regions have SOME differences in powers, indeed local authorities also have powers that they can use with discretion.
If we take the US as an example where the federal government allows each state to have different powers, the comparison is quite similar. I do not hear of Texas or any other state wanting independence, or have I missed something

Katie59

“England does not have its own government.”

Westminster governs the whole of Britain including NI, each of the devolved regions have SOME differences in powers, indeed local authorities also have powers that they can use with discretion.
If we take the US as an example where the federal government allows each state to have different powers, the comparison is quite similar. I do not hear of Texas or any other state wanting independence, or have I missed something

Not recently no, though Texas was briefly a country. In fact, if you go to 4 St. James St, you can still see the plaque that says it's the Texan embassy.

The point was - how do we refer to each of the 4 constituent parts of the UK? The choice of words here often betrays a political preference. The poster I answered called NI a province. I have no particular problem with that but I’d defer to anyone here actually from NI and I suspect that there may be alignment according to nationalist/unionist preferences.

I simple made the point above to the poster who then replied by posting a dictionary definition of a province and a country (and I think a region too). This dictionary definition of a country says it has to have its own government. Now you may argue that Westminster is England’s own government (a point I’d disagree with if necessary), but if it is then it’s also the own government of the Scotland, Wales and NI, so they are also countries.

If Westminster is not England’s own government then England does not fit the definition of a country posted, which is why I asked the question. In fact, under this argument Scotland, Wales and NI have more reason to call themselves countries than England.

So – and please, note I am not arguing here that England is not a country - I’m simply pointing out that there seems to be an inconsistency on how we behave. And words matter.

So the basic point is not what do you call England, Wales, Scotland and NI but why do you call them that?

When Scotland voted for devolution, and Wales and NI clearly wanted to have a strong say over legislation affecting their territories, we should have had MPs meeting in London for three days a week, deciding on matters affecting the UK.

On two days a week Scottish MPs could have met in Edinburgh, Welsh MPs in Cardiff and NI MPs in Belfast deciding the issues which affected them.

On these two days the HoC would have become an English parliament where English MPs could decide matters affecting England.

There was never any need for MSPs. Welsh AMs or members of the NI assembly.

Why did we not keep it simple?

UK MPs used to do all the work required for the UK.

Douglas Ross MP, leader of the Scottish Conservatives is also a member of the Scottish Parliament.

Assuming he does both of these jobs conscientiously, he proves that there is no need for any MSP to claim that she has a full time job.

Surely Westminster legislates in the interests of the whole UK, which of course is biased towards England, then the devolved parliaments can vary that in certain areas.

85% of the UK population live in England so Westminster legislating in the interests of the majority is entirely justified whilst allowing some changes for the regions, or provinces or principalities or countries, it matters not to me.

UK MPs did not ever do all the work required for the UK - the system was, and remains England-centric. Members of the Senedd are more engaged in local issues than MPs are varian, much more visible in local communities, and consequently closer to what really matters to people, so have more meaningful decision making processes at Senedd level. I don’t see how having MPs in Wales for two days a week would come anywhere near to that level of commitment or indeed value.

Lorry drivers who voted for brexit bitterly regret it.

brexitactually.quora.com/?__nsrc__=4&__snid3__=33045016589

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-imperial-measurements-economic-benefit-study-b2021304.html

What utter nonsense!

varian

What utter nonsense!

Do you mean the imperial measurements? Yes, it's nonsense - pandering the over 66 year olds - anybody younger would have been brought up with metric.

I am 76 and learned metric measurements at school.

Imperial is either as hark to the glorious past of the British Empire, or more likely another kowtow to the USA.

This would be a joke if we weren’t paying taxpayers money for it. Contrary to Brexiteer belief we have always been able to talk about miles per gallon, pints, stones and pounds etc No one has stopped us. However, we do need metric for a lot of measurements as we need to ensure accuracy and synchronise in building industry for example, therefore it’s foolish not to use it in those cases. I can operate perfectly happily with cms or inches - it’s not that difficult.

anyone who has not been able to get used and understand metric measurements, since

1973 !!!

is serioulsy 'challenged' in many ways, truly.

growstuff

varian

What utter nonsense!

Do you mean the imperial measurements? Yes, it's nonsense - pandering the over 66 year olds - anybody younger would have been brought up with metric.

I'm over 70 and I have absolutely no desire to return to imperial measures.

Mind you, people still use them in shops like butchers and greengrocers for quantities and most shop assistants manage to be 'bilingual' in imperial and metric weights. It's not difficult.

But utterly stupid to try to revert. They really are scraping the barrel for Brexit 'benefits, aren't they? How embarrassing the UK has become.

or more likely another kowtow to the USA.

OMG! Have we got to do everything by 'cups' now? ?

"So the basic point is not what do you call England, Wales, Scotland and NI but why do you call them that?"

It's a very interesting point but you suggested that using the word "province" betrayed my political persuasion. Now I am not at all ashamed of the way I vote, but was a bit put out when you said this. After all, doesn't the BBC refer to NI as a "province" - and I'm sure my political leanings are diametrically opposed to most BBC journalists.

Metric measures have never really taken off in this country. I remember a young carpenter who did some work at my house. He was far too young to have learnt imperial measures at school but still used them in his work because he had learnt from the men he worked alongside.

I now live in a brand new house, but my patio doors are still exactly 5 feet wide

vegansrock

This would be a joke if we weren’t paying taxpayers money for it. Contrary to Brexiteer belief we have always been able to talk about miles per gallon, pints, stones and pounds etc No one has stopped us. However, we do need metric for a lot of measurements as we need to ensure accuracy and synchronise in building industry for example, therefore it’s foolish not to use it in those cases. I can operate perfectly happily with cms or inches - it’s not that difficult.

It's not a question of operating in both systems, but of how you think. I can operate in metric but still think in Imperial and have to translate.

Come to that I still think in "gas marks" and haven't had a gas oven for over 30 years.

GrannyRose15

"So the basic point is not what do you call England, Wales, Scotland and NI but why do you call them that?"

It's a very interesting point but you suggested that using the word "province" betrayed my political persuasion. Now I am not at all ashamed of the way I vote, but was a bit put out when you said this. After all, doesn't the BBC refer to NI as a "province" - and I'm sure my political leanings are diametrically opposed to most BBC journalists.

Apologies GR15, it wasn't my intention to make you feel put out, simply to point out that we all – myself included - make implicit political assumptions.

The situations are not comparable, but nonetheless I was reminded of the exchange when listening to Putin this morning saying that Ukraine is not a country.

MaizieD

growstuff

varian

What utter nonsense!

Do you mean the imperial measurements? Yes, it's nonsense - pandering the over 66 year olds - anybody younger would have been brought up with metric.

I'm over 70 and I have absolutely no desire to return to imperial measures.

Mind you, people still use them in shops like butchers and greengrocers for quantities and most shop assistants manage to be 'bilingual' in imperial and metric weights. It's not difficult.

But utterly stupid to try to revert. They really are scraping the barrel for Brexit 'benefits, aren't they? How embarrassing the UK has become.

It's bonkers! Nobody younger than 66 did school exams using Imperial measurements. I was in the first cohort to use metric, which is how I remember. As far as most younger people are concerned, we might as well start using binary or an abacus.

This really is a distraction from some very serious issues - and it sounds as though government money is going to be wasted on some kind of report.

GrannyRose15

Metric measures have never really taken off in this country. I remember a young carpenter who did some work at my house. He was far too young to have learnt imperial measures at school but still used them in his work because he had learnt from the men he worked alongside.

I now live in a brand new house, but my patio doors are still exactly 5 feet wide

Yes, they have! Some things have never changed, but most young people don't think in feet and inches. I couldn't tell you my weight in stones and pounds.

Kali2

anyone who has not been able to get used and understand metric measurements, since

1973 !!!

is serioulsy 'challenged' in many ways, truly.

I did O level maths and sciences in 1971 and used metric, so it's even longer than that.