Sadly few of us are winners!

Bluecat???
Germensheperd I don’t understand why people ‘fear’ Labour. Yes, I see that the rich need a Conservative gov. (in order to remain rich) but, for the ordinary person, Labour policies can only make life better - and more equitable.

Ayse- I don't think the people who voted for Brexit understood the meaning and implications of a free market unfortunately. For the majority of them it was about immigration ? and those in power encouraged it ,together with the giving money they allegedly were going to save to the NHS another big lie. The Tories love a free market as they line their pockets with all the wheeling and dealing.

I didn’t vote for Brexit. I do vote Tory. I don’t consider myself rich but we own our home and have some savings and investments. Neither of us was born with a silver spoon in our mouth. We wouldn’t vote for a party which would take away as much as possible of what we’ve worked all our lives for. Is that unreasonable?

Germanshepherdsmum

I didn’t vote for Brexit. I do vote Tory. I don’t consider myself rich but we own our home and have some savings and investments. Neither of us was born with a silver spoon in our mouth. We wouldn’t vote for a party which would take away as much as possible of what we’ve worked all our lives for. Is that unreasonable?

I think there's a debate to be had on what is reasonable.

Is it reasonable for wealth to become more and more concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people when there are people living in poverty?

I don't suppose anyone thinks that they are 'wealthy' but there comes a point where people have amassed far more than they could ever need or use and all that their 'wealth' does is to accumulate more 'wealth'.In effect, money that could be used in all sorts of ways, relieving poverty being one, just lying idle and effectively purposeless. Passing it on to another generation just compounds the concentration.

With regards to IHT, which Dinahmo mentioned earlier. The current threshold is £325,000 and anything above that is taxed at 40%. So it's not exactly taking away everything someone has worked for...£325,000 plus 60% of the remainder doesn't seem too little to me for someone to inherit. After all, the heirs haven't worked for it, they've just been lucky enough to inherit from someone who might have...

It would certainly sound like riches beyond their imagination for the 9,000,000 or so people in this country who live at poverty level or below. Not necessarily poor because of failure to work hard, a lot of poor people work very hard indeed, but because of not being in the right circumstances. to amass that sort of money.

I really don't know what the answer is. Is money a collective 'good' which can be used to enable people to live in comfort and dignity (See Adam Smith above) or is it a winner takes all commodity and hard luck to everyone else?

We have benefited from house price inflation, downsized and managed to save a bit. We both worked all our adult lives. Many people will be in a similar position, many won’t. Those in our position are unlikely to vote for a party likely to put us in a less favourable IHT position.

I think you've completely missed the point of my philosophical post, GSM.

But, I wasn't trying to make it personal, but since you seem to have taken it that way...

Assuming you have children you intend to leave the wealth to that you're so scared that Labour will take away from you, how hard have they worked for it?

And what is so awful about them 'only' getting £325,000 and 60% of the rest?

I'm in a very similar position to you Germanshepherdsmum. DH and I always worked hard, benefitted from the property market, saved into a pension, downsized and are reasonably comfortable (partly because we live a simple life). I vote Labour.

At the moment I don't think the Conservatives are doing a very good job of looking after the poorest in our society or indeed people like us in the middle. The rich and big business they do look after. The current system seems set up to take away or reduce a lot of things that make life safe and comfortable for us non-millionaire types e.g. triple lock, NHS, social care, libraries, free school dinners. I don't know why they think that works given the muddle it's made of things and have even less idea why they think that is fair. How can mega rich MPs be satisfied with their policies if after 10 years kids remain in poverty for their whole childhood?

I don't think Labour want to or will take away everything I've ever worked for. I think they will tax all people more fairly so as to help those struggling and that they will invest in infrastructure and safety nets that will make life better for all of us. We will all benefit from better care, health care, better public transport etc.

If I have to give up a fair part of what I have so that the children of the poorest families are fed, clothed, educated and in good health then I am ok with that. After all, all my life I've benefited from state provided education and healthcare and I would like to do all I can to keep helping those coming up behind. This is what will make the country thrive now and in the future in my opinion - not handing down big, untaxed sums to a few people. The people who inherit our estate will have tax deducted, but they will be getting a huge leg up so that's ok by me given all I've written above.

Isn't it fascinating how we all think differently. I love that about GN.

I often muse why over the last 30. years no government has provided us with Nuclear Power Stations. I understand France did so. I presume the political will was not there because a very loud protest would have stopped it. Then we all objected to fracking and so we have great swathes of wind power but I understand we have not got enough wind.
I just think that ordinary people cannot afford the new energy charges plus with growing inflation things are a right mess. The Conservatives and Labour should have decided to sort energy out, but they didn’t and now we suffer for their profligacy.

For those who are angry enough to protest, here's your chance: thepeoplesassembly.org.uk/

I'm so angry I've decided to suffer a couple of uncomfortable hours on a bus to Glasgow next Saturday to do just that {angry}

Sorry - I used the wrong brackets

My husband and I have also both worked hard all our lives. We own our house, saved into pensions etc. and consider ourselves in the ‘middle income’ bracket, I suppose. Neither of us inherited anything from our families - both coming from council estates and working hard to go to university and on to professional careers. Sadly, I fear the social mobility we benefited from is a thing of the past. I vote Labour because I do not believe that a Conservative gov. looks after the people ‘in the middle’. I think the values of hard work, social justice and equality of opportunity are embedded within a Labour ethos. I have no fear that a Labour gov. would ‘take away’ everything we’ve worked for - just the opposite in fact. 12 years of Conservative gov. has certainly done nothing for our savings, pensions and life choices.

LizzieDrip

I fear the social mobility we benefited from is a thing of the past. I vote Labour because I do not believe that a Conservative gov. looks after the people ‘in the middle’

This!

Thanks Chapeau. I'll pass to my daughter.
None in NI.

Loft insulation is relatively cheap, so why can't those on low incomes have help to install it, or top it up?

Our HA put extra insulation in the loft, that was fine.
Then they put foam in the outside facing walls, for some reason only ours and it has been horrendous.
One of my daughter's bedrooms is so damp and with mould now even though keep cleaning with mould remover and special paint and it just keeps coming. Have had to throw so much stuff away that just can't save and her clothes have to be in my other daughter's room, it is a nightmare, if I could get it out I would.
Never had a damp problem before, HA won't help either.

I have a mild interest in politics but it appears from many post that voting Labour will improve everyone’s life why haven’t they won an election since 2005. What is the Labour Party doing wrong.

Germanshepherdsmum

So many fear that a Labour government will try to take away all they’ve worked for, they will never be persuaded to vote Labour.

But when has that ever happened?

It is such a silly myth perpetuated by the Tories and believed by the gullible.

I see that the Treasury has prevented the plan for helping the NHS backlog from being published.

I doubt whether Sunak or indeed most of the cabinet would ever have to suffer the wait.

Gsm Many people work very hard all their lives and never have enough to save anything.
I think when we vote we have to think whose policies will take care of the majority of people.
It's sad that so many are suffering when so much money is accumulated that will never be used.

Maisie, you can never take a persons ability or drive away to earn more, unless you have communism and that doesn’t work, you still have the hierarchy there Life isn’t fair, the rich, know the accountants to use and can afford to, they syphon money to make even more, money makes money. If you over tax, the people that make the big bucks and provide work will move elsewhere, move there money elsewhere, no jobs, no economy. It’s a circle. We rely on people buying and needing things. There is a bigger divide now than ever. A lot of wealthy do make substantial donations to people and charities, but most want to keep it in the family. When Wall Street collapsed people jumped out if windows, rather than live poor, they have this dread of losing their wealth or their offspring not getting it.

Both me and my husband were brought up in council houses and money was very tight. Fortunately through hard work (and some good luck) we are now comfortably off. My husband built up and owned a very successful company (which was sold about 15 years ago) and we want for nothing. BUT, even though it would benefit us to vote Tory, we are both strong Labour supporters. We have never forgotten the struggle our parents went through to try and provide for their children - none were well-educated, through no fault of their own, and worked in low paid jobs. We were lucky, we both went to grammar schools and had far more opportunities in life to succeed than our parents ever did. Most people aren't poor through choice - and if they need the government's help to enable them to have the basics in life, (food and heating) then my vote goes to Labour, who are far more likely to help those that are struggling. Problems with IHT do not figure at all in our choice of who to vote for - our children will inherent something - which we didn't when our parents died. Whatever is left after tax is still a bonus - they are lucky to inherit at all.

So do their offspring, a lot of the time.

Allsorts

Maisie, you can never take a persons ability or drive away to earn more, unless you have communism and that doesn’t work, you still have the hierarchy there Life isn’t fair, the rich, know the accountants to use and can afford to, they syphon money to make even more, money makes money. If you over tax, the people that make the big bucks and provide work will move elsewhere, move there money elsewhere, no jobs, no economy. It’s a circle. We rely on people buying and needing things. There is a bigger divide now than ever. A lot of wealthy do make substantial donations to people and charities, but most want to keep it in the family. When Wall Street collapsed people jumped out if windows, rather than live poor, they have this dread of losing their wealth or their offspring not getting it.

You've bought into the myth that if you dare to make the wealthy pay their fair share, they will up sticks and leave. It's such a well-worn trope that there have been studies / investigations into it to verify whether it's true. The overall conclusion of these studies (too many to mention) is that, in fact, their migration is surprisingly low, even though they have the resources and capacity to flee - their success is tied to their ongoing potential, where they are often powerful insiders, and that success ultimately diminishes both the incentive and desire to migrate.

If I were one of the very wealthy elite, I'd probably also push this belief on to the masses in order to maintain the status quo and to encourage them to be grateful for the jobs created.

We don't want their donations to charity - if and when they decide, we want them to pay their share of tax and not take it out of the economy and squirrel it away in tax bolt holes or use it to buy up more land / property where they can make even more money to add to their enormous wealth.

I don't envy them, I don't want their exaggerated life-styles, their obsession with money, their need to live in isolated, gated communities... this is not the 'politics of envy', just a deep-seated revulsion at the huge wealth inequality, and the methods used to perpetuate it.

Johnson tells us, at every opportunity, that the UK economy is growing. This is what economic growth in the UK looks like under the Conservative gov:

Since Conservatives came into power in 2010, the number of people turning to Trussell Trust food banks for emergency food aid has risen from 40,898 (2009/10) to 2,537,198 (2020/21).

Despite year of economic turmoil, 24 people became billionaires in UK during pandemic, taking total to 171. (The Guardian)

Immoral; inhumane; disgusting!

rosie1959

I have a mild interest in politics but it appears from many post that voting Labour will improve everyone’s life why haven’t they won an election since 2005. What is the Labour Party doing wrong.

Perhaps a major reason is the richest people have power - power to own the media and power to donate millions of pounds to the Conservative party.

This group of the richest people benefit most from having a Conservative government....contracts and knighthoods come their way, jobs and directorships fall into their lap, laws to protect workers are eroded to ensure profits rise and very importantly the tax system gets stacked increasingly in their favour.

They use their power to spin the myths that people believe e.g. The Labour Party will take away all you've worked for. People believe this, they read it spun out in the media every day and then the Conservative party wins again.

Maisie, you can never take a persons ability or drive away to earn more, unless you have communism and that doesn’t work, you still have the hierarchy there

I quite agree. There is nothing wrong with that. That is partly why communism as we understand it failed. It took the ability to think and act for themselves away from people and ignored the diversity of human nature. We need a system which recognises that people are different, but all people have a value. Where people are rewarded for their energy, imagination and ability to make things happen, but where it is recognised that without the people who work for them to implement their ideas and make their product nothing would be achieved by them.

Life isn’t fair, the rich, know the accountants to use and can afford to, they syphon money to make even more, money makes money.

That is because our system is set up to work like that. It's not a question of 'life' not being fair, it's the system that is unfair. Money works on two levels. On one level it has a transactional value, it's used to buy things or to create the things we buy, but on the other level it is used to buy power. It buys the power for those with wealth to skew the system in their favour. Why do you think rich people donate huge sums to the tory party? Because they know the party will favour them and increase their ability to accumulate more wealth.

f you over tax, the people that make the big bucks and provide work will move elsewhere, move there money elsewhere, no jobs, no economy.

Capital flight already happens. Not because of taxation but because in our global economy it is more profitable for someone to take their production facilities to somewhere where labour costs are cheaper. To exploit other people in systems where there is less regard paid to the health, safety and wellbeing of the people who work for them. Where workers are poorer and less likely to demand, or have the power to demand, better conditions and a better standard of life.

Wealth is also squirreled away in tax havens, safe from taxation. Tax havens are the product of a system skewed towards the wealthy because they are able to skew the system because of their wealth. It's also a circle. Is it a desirable one?

It’s a circle. We rely on people buying and needing things.

But the people who set up the production of 'things' also have needs. They need good infrastructure, they need a healthy work force, they need an educated workforce. They need the country to be defended against foreign aggression. When you look at the history of our industrialised nation you can see that it gradually dawned on them that it was no benefit to them to keep the greater part of the population in poverty, ill health and ignorance. But, at the same time, you also see the 'workers' demanding that they have a share of the wealth that they are creating and that poverty, ill health and ignorance shouldn't be their lot it life. They wanted some 'agency', too. so we get a tension between the needs of two sections of society, but a tension in which the wealthy mostly have the upper hand because they have the power given by their wealth.

There is a bigger divide now than ever. A lot of wealthy do make substantial donations to people and charities, but most want to keep it in the family.

I find that somewhat hypocritical. A sticking plaster on the ills they cause by concentrating wealth in their hands.

When Wall Street collapsed people jumped out if windows, rather than live poor, they have this dread of losing their wealth or their offspring not getting it.

If you live by the sword you die by the sword. Make your money by speculating in an artificial 'market' and you have to accept the fact that it could all collapse. Like it very nearly did in the global financial crisis, which was only averted by government intervention. Ironically, in the UK, by the intervention of a Labour government, the bogeyman of the wealthy...