Ukraine

Urmstongran

Kali with respect you do seem obsessed by Brexit. You manage to shoehorn it into most of the political threads.

Because it is hugely and directly relevant here. Simple.

Not wanting a thread about Ukraine to be distracted by Brexit does not mean an inability to see the connection to Putin's motives and actions in the past, which have been thoroughly expressed on old threads. Anybody who can't appreciate that some of us prefer to concentrate on the horror Ukraine is facing, rather than banging the Brexit drum, needs to pay more attention.

For "bad actors", read "malevolent interests".

Rosie51

I voted remain, wished we'd never left and would vote to rejoin in an instant but bringing Brexit into a thread about the appalling situation for Ukraine is a distraction from the incredible bravery of the Ukraine people. Well said Freya5

I agree

Anybody who can't see the connection between the influence of bad actors on the break up of a European union, and Putin's plans for expansion, needs to pay more attention.

I see that Farage is blaming the EU and NATO for what's happened.

I voted remain, wished we'd never left and would vote to rejoin in an instant but bringing Brexit into a thread about the appalling situation for Ukraine is a distraction from the incredible bravery of the Ukraine people. Well said Freya5

MayBee70

Urmstongran

Kali with respect you do seem obsessed by Brexit. You manage to shoehorn it into most of the political threads.

That’s probably because more and more things are coming to light regarding Russian interference in both US and U.K. elections. Plus the close ties with Russia that a lot of people in the leave campaign had.

Brexit is not the issue here. Ukraine is. For those whose only thing to communicate is Brexit, think about the Ukraine. . Please do not let this be a whine about Brexit, we are working with the Europeans, and NATO, we are not operating on our own. No one, wether France, Germany us or anyone has clout against Putin on their own. It is Russia who is the pariah here, not the British public who voted to leave the EU.

My stomach still turns when I think of that tank driving straight over the car. Thankfully the person got out in one piece.

I dont think the Russians want this anymore than anyone else. Today I said to DH that I also feel sorry for the Russian families who will be losing a son, husband or brother as well as the Ukraines. Such a mindless waste of lives. How does Putin get away with it?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Urmstongran

Kali with respect you do seem obsessed by Brexit. You manage to shoehorn it into most of the political threads.

With respect, that's because it's becoming clear that Putin did wage a propaganda campaign before the referendum, to destabilise the UK and Europe.

???

Oh dear , not Brexit AGAIN!

Urmstongran

Kali with respect you do seem obsessed by Brexit. You manage to shoehorn it into most of the political threads.

That’s probably because more and more things are coming to light regarding Russian interference in both US and U.K. elections. Plus the close ties with Russia that a lot of people in the leave campaign had.

Kali with respect you do seem obsessed by Brexit. You manage to shoehorn it into most of the political threads.

From Jason Hunter:

''I'm quite surprised at many a right wing UK commentator and journalist now calling Putin a "despot", "dictator", "maniac" etc.
These same people SUPPORTED Putins foreign policy funded by Russia to misinform the UK public to vote for Brexit to destabilise the EU.''

the hypocrisy of the Brexit anti EU crowd is vast and beyond.

Dinahmo I just heard that speech on the news, translated obviously.

They were interviewing some Ukrainian soldiers on the TV news yesterday, I think it was ITV. They asked them a few questions about how they were preparing and the questions were answered factually; we have x guns, y soldiers, that kind of thing, very matter of fact.

Then they asked them when they expected to see Russian soldiers in central Kyiv, expecting the answer to be "Tomorrow" or something like that.

The answer was "Never". Brought me up short. These people won't give in.

Thankyou. I'm a big fan of Snopes.

Oldwoman70

Janamax

Oldwoman70

I note that Tamayra has not returned to defend their outrageous claim about why Russia invaded Ukraine. A claim which was started on Twitter (wonder which country was behind that!) and since proved to be untrue.

Can I make a plea that this thread stays on point and doesn't descend into attacks on individual posters.

This is one of Donald Trump's. He is using this conflict to attack Joe Biden.

In 2005 the Ukraine government modernised state laboratories and at that time issued the following statement:

“We emphasize that these laboratories are financed from the state budget, are subordinate to the Ministry of Health and the state service on food safety and consumer protection,”

Russia has been spreading these false rumours about bioweapon labs since at least 2018. May 2020 Ukraine released the following statement:

“Recently, ‘fake news’ about the alleged activities of American military biological laboratories in Ukraine has been spread in the media and social networks … No foreign biological laboratories operate in Ukraine. Statements recently made by individual politicians are not true and are a deliberate distortion of the facts.”

FACTCHECK: Ukraine, US Biolabs, and an Ongoing Russian Disinformation Campaign

www.snopes.com/news/2022/02/24/us-biolabs-ukraine-russia/

President Zelenskyy's, speech to the Russian people

Apologies for the length of these posts but they may be of interest -

Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy has been giving a press briefing this morning, and said his country will triumph over Russian forces.

He said that government forces still control Kyiv and “key points around the city”. He said that Ukrainian forces would win, and criticised disinformation.

In the final section of his speech, he said: “Please stop those who are lying, or trying to lie to you, or lying to us. We need to stop this war. We can live in peace together, globally as humans.

“Our military, our national guard, our national police, our territory defence, special service, nationals of Ukraine, please carry on. We will win. Glory to Ukraine.”

Zelenskiy said: “We are successfully holding back the enemies attacks. We know we are defending our land and the future of our children. Kyiv and the key areas are controlled by our army.

“The occupiers wanted to set up their puppet in our capital. They didn’t succeed. On our streets, there was a proper fight going on.

The enemy was using all its weapons, artillery, paratroops, all its weapons. They are hitting residential areas, they are trying to destroy energy infrastructure, and everyone should help us to stop this occupation.”

He said that after discussions with EU leaders in recent days, including over shutting Russia out of the Swift payments system (see 9:28), he believed Ukraine should become part of the EU and its citizens should have the same rights.

“Ukrainian people deserve to become members of the EU. And this would be a signal of your support to Ukraine. This discussion should be closed.

“We discussed this today with the European leaders. All the equipment and defence military help is coming to Ukraine and work is going on to disconnecting Russia from Swift. I hope that Hungary will be forced to support this decision.”

He asked for people who could come back to Ukraine to fight, to do so: “In every hour and place, city, and town and person ... everywhere where the enemy is killing our people, our armed forces are doing everything they can to destroy the enemy.

“Those cities and town that are being attacked from the air are holding up, well done. If you can destroy the occupiers, please do. Everyone who can come back to Ukraine, please do, please come back.

“We will have a lot of work to do to rebuild our Ukraine. Everyone who can defend it abroad, do it directly in a united way. Every friend of Ukraine who wants to join Ukraine in defending the country please come over, we will give you weapons. It will be announced very shortly, how this can be done. Everyone who is defending Ukraine is a hero.”

He issued another plea to Russian people to help stop the war by putting pressure on Vladimir Putin and his government. Anti-war protesters have been arrested in recent days in Moscow and St Petersberg.

“I want everyone in Russia to hear me. Everybody. Hundreds of captured soldiers who are here in Ukraine don’t know why they were sent here to kill people or be killed. People need to tell the government why the war has to be stopped, more people from your country will stay alive.

“Your nationals are voicing their opposition to this war. We know many people in Russia are shocked now by the brutality of the Russian government, this is the right reaction, I am grateful to this reaction.”

More news:

The French have ceased a Russian ship in the English Channel

Reuters said that French authorities believed it could be linked to a company suspected of violating trade sanctions linked to the war in Ukraine.

The BBC has reported French officials saying: “A 127 meters long Russia cargo ship called the ‘Baltic Leader’ transporting cars has been intercepted overnight by the French Navy in the Channel and escorted to the Port of Boulogne-Sur-Mer in northern France,” the official said.

“It has been taken to the French port after a request by the French government because it is suspected of belonging to a company targeted by EU sanctions against Moscow. French boarder forces are currently investigating the cargo ship. Crew aboard the ‘Baltic Leader’ has been cooperating with French authorities.”

The ship was taken early on Saturday. The Russian embassy is seeking a formal explanation.

Latest news:

The president of Lithuania has appealed to Russians to stop the war -

The president of Lithuania, Gitanas Nausėda, is the latest European leader to ask Russian people to stop the war saying: “Even though much evil has been committed, it’s not too late to stop all of this.”

He said: “I appeal to you mothers of soldiers who are sent to die in Ukraine. I appeal to you soldiers who are fighting a war for who knows why.

“What is the meaning of this war? Only because someone is sitting at a table, drew a piece of land on the map, that he wants to take away?

“A piece of land that never belonged to him. Does not belong to him. And will never belong to him.

“It’s terrifying to see what is going on. It’s terrifying to see women and children die. Churches are being destroyed. What are you fighting for? You are destroying what is sacred to all the Slavs. The cradle of Orthodoxy. Kiev Rus.

“Stop. Think about what you’re doing. About what your leaders are doing. It’s not too late, even though much evil has been committed, it’s not too late to stop all of this.”

My DH said yesterday that a Russian division had downed their weapons because they had been misinformed about the purpose of Russia's attack on the Ukraine and that they had no intention of attacking fellow Slavs.

The report of the lady handing out sunflower seeds reminded me of the Carnation Revolution in Portugal. Many officers in the Portuguese army were disenchanted with the extreme regime and planned a coup. Their code for passing on messages via the media was the Portuguese entry into Eurovision that year (1974). Hardly any shots were fired and a restaurant worker started putting carnations in the soldiers' guns and the public followed suit. A very peaceful revolution.

We happened to be on holiday Lisbon on the 40th anniversary, staying in a hotel near the army barracks. There were celebrations and carnations everywhere. I have been hoping that perhaps a similar thing could happen in the Ukraine once the majority of the soldiers realise that they have been sent to kill their brethren.

Not wishing to go 'off topic' here, but all these fake news posts about bio labs in Ukraine remind me of a very recent post here about Covid bio labs in Wuhan. We always assume, at least I do, that Posters here are genuine. Fifth columnists at work?
As far as believing what's going on, I'll stick with what my Ukrainian friends are saying.
Sad about Snake Island, the kids in the shelters, the fathers saying goodbye, and much much more.

Janamax

Oldwoman70

I note that Tamayra has not returned to defend their outrageous claim about why Russia invaded Ukraine. A claim which was started on Twitter (wonder which country was behind that!) and since proved to be untrue.

Can I make a plea that this thread stays on point and doesn't descend into attacks on individual posters.

This is one of Donald Trump's. He is using this conflict to attack Joe Biden.

In 2005 the Ukraine government modernised state laboratories and at that time issued the following statement:

“We emphasize that these laboratories are financed from the state budget, are subordinate to the Ministry of Health and the state service on food safety and consumer protection,”

Russia has been spreading these false rumours about bioweapon labs since at least 2018. May 2020 Ukraine released the following statement:

“Recently, ‘fake news’ about the alleged activities of American military biological laboratories in Ukraine has been spread in the media and social networks … No foreign biological laboratories operate in Ukraine. Statements recently made by individual politicians are not true and are a deliberate distortion of the facts.”