Opportunity for hiding the bad news

Germanshepherdsmum

What troubles me about student loans is the number of people who study a subject that will never earn them a salary which will require them to pay back a penny. In addition to in effect getting a free university education they may well end up relying on benefits to bolster their low earnings.
I will now don my helmet and flak jacket whilst beating a hasty retreat.

Two of my family are not working in the degree speciality they obtained. One did. for a while, then diverged. They are both high earners at a very young age, with International companies. Any Degree opens the mind, gives greater knowledge, enables the ability to research, and can and does open doors to achieve, even if not in the Degree studied. That’s what I think anyway.

growstuff

No, it wasn't just teaching degrees. It used to be the rule for all degrees.

Yes, I thought it was but perhaps I'm thinking of GCEs way back in the mists of time

FannyCornforth

Thinking still about the GCSE thing still. There is absolutely no rationale for it.
It will definitely penalise certain sectors, especially those with various challenges.
That must be the thinking behind it.

I'm afraid I disagree. Having taught in secondary schools for years, I would have concerns about anybody not capable of achieving a Grade 4 in Maths and English being able to cope with the demands of a degree course. I understand the rules will be different for mature students.

Callistemon21

growstuff

No, it wasn't just teaching degrees. It used to be the rule for all degrees.

Yes, I thought it was but perhaps I'm thinking of GCEs way back in the mists of time

No, it was the same for some years after GCSEs were introduced. I can't remember exactly when it was, but I think the rules changed when universities were encouraged to get as many bums on seats as possible.

I worked in a school where we did Sixth Form Maths and English resits for those who were hoping to go to university (or some other jobs and courses) but had failed first time round.

I thought you had to pass GCSE’s in Maths and English before you could do A levels.

It was on the BBC news last night. Not hidden at all.

growstuff

I worked in a school where we did Sixth Form Maths and English resits for those who were hoping to go to university (or some other jobs and courses) but had failed first time round.

that used to happen when I went to school too (a very very long time ago )

25Avalon

I thought you had to pass GCSE’s in Maths and English before you could do A levels.

Not necessarily. There was no rule, but it depended on the school.

I would seriously question whether a pupil who can't achieve a Grade 4 would be able to do that subject at A level.

Some sixth forms insist on a minimum number of GCSE grade, including high (above Grade 7) in the subjects they want to study. That's how their pupils get such high grades at A level.

Not really relevant, but before I could study English at any university in the sixties, I had to obtain a GCE in Latin! ( I had given it up twice and so had to take it up again in the sixth form.)

I remember that Nandalot. I wanted to do “Modern History” at Cambridge University but you had to have Latin which I’d failed at. Also in my days you had to sit an entrance exam and our school made you do a third year in the 6th form first.

growstuff

FannyCornforth

Thinking still about the GCSE thing still. There is absolutely no rationale for it.
It will definitely penalise certain sectors, especially those with various challenges.
That must be the thinking behind it.

I'm afraid I disagree. Having taught in secondary schools for years, I would have concerns about anybody not capable of achieving a Grade 4 in Maths and English being able to cope with the demands of a degree course. I understand the rules will be different for mature students.

I wasn't a mature student, and as I say, I managed a 2.1 at a RG university, followed by two more degrees at other similar institutions, but still haven't got a maths O level. It's daft to assume that that a lack of interest, or a rubbish teacher at 16 is an indicator of lack of capability.

O level was harder than Grade 4 GCSE.

Grade 4 is the expected level the majority of 11 year olds should reach.

How has the bad news been hidden? The changes in student loans was headlines on the news, newspapers and online. Very difficult to miss.

What else were the government meant to do? Have a ticker tape procession down Oxford Street?

growstuff

Grade 4 is the expected level the majority of 11 year olds should reach.

How?
How can they work that out?
You need 4 years of KS 3 and 4 teaching to achieve that
And the set texts, how could the ‘majority of 11 year olds’ access them?
Surely they would need the reading age of above 11? Which by definition they aren’t going to have?
It doesn’t make sense
(Retired Teacher of Reading l)

Ignore the rogue ‘1’!

FannyCornforth

growstuff

Grade 4 is the expected level the majority of 11 year olds should reach.

How?
How can they work that out?
You need 4 years of KS 3 and 4 teaching to achieve that
And the set texts, how could the ‘majority of 11 year olds’ access them?
Surely they would need the reading age of above 11? Which by definition they aren’t going to have?
It doesn’t make sense
(Retired Teacher of Reading l)

No, you don't. Most Year 7s will already be at Grade 4 level in English Language (not Literature) and Maths. Some will be better. At the age of 11, there's a 7 year attainment gap. A "reading age" of 11 is arbitrary. Some will have the average reading age of a 7 year old. Others will have the reading age of a 14 year old. Some could easily access GCSE set texts at age 11.

Admittedly progress isn't always even and some are late developers, but I would be seriously concerned that somebody who can't achieve Grade 4s at the age of 16 (with resits) wouldn't be able to access a degree course, unless it really were one of the "Micky Mouse" degrees people claim exist.

Thank you! That makes sense now

Admittedly progress isn't always even and some are late developers, but I would be seriously concerned that somebody who can't achieve Grade 4s at the age of 16 (with resits) wouldn't be able to access a degree course, unless it really were one of the "Micky Mouse" degrees people claim exist.

"Disney University (DU) is the global training program for employees of the parks and experiences divisions at The Walt Disney Company also known as Cast Members. Many college students can participate through the Disney college program. The Disney college program is a full-time paid internship at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida. Students can receive academic credit while building their resume"

FannyCornforth

Thank you! That makes sense now

I think that I would currently be hard pushed to achieve Grade 4 in English Language

Admittedly progress isn't always even and some are late developers, but I would be seriously concerned that somebody who can't achieve Grade 4s at the age of 16 (with resits) wouldn't be able to access a degree course, unless it really were one of the "Micky Mouse" degrees people claim exist.

I couldn't disagree more.

At 12 I was put on a fast track to take Maths, English Language and English Literature O levels at 14. I passed the English ones with flying colours, but struggled with the Maths, and half way through the syllabus transferred to the 'normal' class. By then, the syllabuses had diverged, and I wasn't interested. This was a 1970s comprehensive, which saw achievement as getting a few top stream kids to apply for teacher training or the civil service, and assumed that girls would marry young and have babies, so didn't need many qualifications. The teachers weren't interested, I was always a rebel, and didn't see the point in trying too hard, as I planned to leave at 16.

I did leave, but did A levels (not including Maths) at college, did well, then went to university, where I didn't need the O level, and haven't looked back. I am far from innumerate - I just can't do things like quadratic equations, as I wasn't taught them properly. It has made no difference to my life.

Similarly, my daughter is dyslexic, and found English difficult, although she can very easily hold an articulate conversation, and argue her case. She passed her English GCSE, but even if she hadn't, it would have been highly unfair to stop her from going to university, where she did well, on account of having problems with writing things down.

Neither of us did so-called Mickey Mouse degrees, although I have never understood what they actually are - the phrase has always struck me as a rather unpleasant sneer by those who want to cling to the golden ticket of an education they got given but want to deny to others.

IMO this 'screening' is simply a way of reducing the numbers of working class kids getting to university, so graduate jobs are kept for those who have always seen them as a right. Middle class parents will pay for tutors (or coach their children themselves) to get them through their GCSEs - it is unlikely to stop many of them from getting a university education.

Doodledog To achieve a Grade 4 maths GCSE you do not need to do quadratic equations. It really is not like O level was. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree because I honestly think anybody who couldn't achieve a Grade 4 in Maths would struggle with a degree course. Incidentally, I looked up the universal requirements for a few Russell Group universities and they all require Grade 4 Maths and English as a basic literacy and numeracy requirement.

PS. You seem to think that working class kids don't do well at school. I can assure you many of them do. Education and schools have moved on since the 1970s.

FannyCornforth

FannyCornforth

Thank you! That makes sense now

I think that I would currently be hard pushed to achieve Grade 4 in English Language

I doubt it. Have you seen what you have to do?