Opportunity for hiding the bad news

Sorry, I was joking growstuff
I have an MA in English and Related Literature.
I wanted to make the point that none of us are in top form all of the time.

I left school in 1962, having sat Scottish Highers and Lowers. We sat both Highers and Lowers at the same time, unlike English pupils who sat A levels two years after O levels.

We were told that our Highers were at a slightly lower level than English A levels (but we usually did more subjects) and the Lowers a bit more advanced than English O levels.

There were only four universities in Scotland (all over 500 years old) and you could not be admitted to any of them without a "Certificate of Fitness".

As far as I can remember Higher English was absolutely required for any degree course. Higher Maths was needed for any Science degree and Arts students needed a Higher in a language other than English. Science students needed at least a Lower in a foreign language and Arts students needed at least a lower maths. Obviously there were other specific requirements for degrees in medicine, engineering etc.

The percentage of school leavers going to university was very small (less than 5%?) so these rules were considered to be fair. Whether they would be now is another question.

I think I agree with growstuff, as long as dyslexia and dyscalculia are factored in somehow so that Doodledog's valid concerns are addressed.

I too get fed up by the way it is always assumed that children from lower income families are always doomed to fail compared with children from families with better incomes..

If they do do worse it is often because teachers and those involved with them expect them to do worse and the children hear the message and expect to fail even before they try.

DH and his best friend were both from lower income families. DH's father worked on the assembly line at a car factory, his friend's father was a cleaner in a factory. His friend became a senior army officer and DH also went to university, got a very good degree plus further degrees and a successful career in every way.He had other friends with similar backgrounds who also went to university

We met at King's College Durham, now Newcastle University. In the early 1960s it was predominantly an engineering and science based university, full of boys from northern industrial towns and lower income families. They had passed their 11+ and came to university through state grammar schools.

growstuff

PS. You seem to think that working class kids don't do well at school. I can assure you many of them do. Education and schools have moved on since the 1970s.

I didn't say that. I don't believe it for a minute. I said that middle class kids get a lot of extra tuition, which makes them less likely to fail exams, which is a very different thing.

Yes, I'm sure things have moved on since the 70s (I certainly hope so). Regardless, I don't think that refusing loans, which is effectively refusing higher education, to those without passes in exams taken at age 16 is fair or desirable, unless the subject being studied needs them as a base. English is often necessary so that students can write essays on other subjects, but even then, if they have passed A levels in those subjects it renders the GCSE unnecessary, surely?

I went to uni as a mature student in the mid 1980s and had never done A levels so I took an Access course. No one ever mentioned the need to have maths or english. I got an instantaneous offer at my interview for a RG university. Then went on to get a 1st, masters with distinction and Ph.d.

Not bad for someone who dropped maths at 14.

I have never been asked to produce a GCE or degree certificate for any course or job. Who is going to check up?

Doodledog yes, I agree re tuition.
I mentioned upthread that there is no way that I would have passed my maths GCSE without tuition.

biglouis that is very impressive ?

Franbern, yes there are things not right, but for me they pale into the background whilst seeing miles of people without their families and homes fleeing because of a maniac. We live in a democracy and there’s not a better place to be.

growstuff what do you mean by middle class? Children whose parents work in an office - that is probably 50% of the children in the country - possibly more? In which case what you say is unlikely. A small select band of children of parents who have high incomes? possibly. But I suspect the parents who are prepared to pay for coaching are probably more evenly spread. You read of parents from impoverished backgrounds taking on extra jobs and goingto all lengths to pay for coaching, if they consider it necessary.

For those of us who are the children or grandchildren of families who have made it from poverty to education and higher income groups. The thing that aided that, was not coaching or anything like that. It was the determination and motivation of parents who placed a high value on education and did everything they could in practical ways to help their children. Joining libraries (free) helping with homework, finding time to talk to their children, read to them and so on.

If you talk to many people now who have succeeded in life, but come from disadvantaged backgrounds, you will find that their greatest aid, was their parents attitude to education and encouragement - and that doesn't cost a penny.

Did I mention middle-class MOnica? What I did was challenge the idea that "working-class" children don't do well at school.

What exactly did I claim which is unlikely? Have you had over half a life time working with children in comprehensive schools?

My experience is of working with a range of children from a wide range of backgrounds and abilities. It isn't just personal nor anecdotal. I've also read a range of literature on the subject. Have you?

PS. I don't know why you addressed that post to me anyway.

FannyCornforth

Doodledog yes, I agree re tuition.
I mentioned upthread that there is no way that I would have passed my maths GCSE without tuition.

biglouis that is very impressive ?

But this is about Grade 4 GCSE, which is not so demanding as O level.

biglouis

I went to uni as a mature student in the mid 1980s and had never done A levels so I took an Access course. No one ever mentioned the need to have maths or english. I got an instantaneous offer at my interview for a RG university. Then went on to get a 1st, masters with distinction and Ph.d.

Not bad for someone who dropped maths at 14.

I have never been asked to produce a GCE or degree certificate for any course or job. Who is going to check up?

Exceptions have always been made for mature students because it's accepted that they might have missed out at school but may have picked up valuable experience since leaving school.

Who mentioned O level?
I didn’t growstuff

I am not sure how helpful anecdotal evidence is, my qualifications have been checked at interview, and I have checked other peoples when recruiting. For certain jobs checking is a bog standard procedure.

Doodledog

growstuff

PS. You seem to think that working class kids don't do well at school. I can assure you many of them do. Education and schools have moved on since the 1970s.

I didn't say that. I don't believe it for a minute. I said that middle class kids get a lot of extra tuition, which makes them less likely to fail exams, which is a very different thing.

Yes, I'm sure things have moved on since the 70s (I certainly hope so). Regardless, I don't think that refusing loans, which is effectively refusing higher education, to those without passes in exams taken at age 16 is fair or desirable, unless the subject being studied needs them as a base. English is often necessary so that students can write essays on other subjects, but even then, if they have passed A levels in those subjects it renders the GCSE unnecessary, surely?

As I make my living from tutoring, I know which parents can afford tutoring, so I agree with you. However, sometimes I feel my "client" is the parent rather than the student.

In any case, it's irrelevant. Grade 4 Maths and English really isn't that demanding and there are opportunities for resits, still funded by the government. I honestly feel that anybody who can't achieve them should not be doing a degree course. It's still a requirement for Russell Group universities. I have serious doubts whether some of the institutions which currently have university charters wouldn't be better reverting to their former status as colleges of HE, etc.

FannyCornforth

Who mentioned O level?
I didn’t growstuff

Presumably you are of the O level generation and it was O level you found difficult, not GCSE.

Galaxy

I am not sure how helpful anecdotal evidence is, my qualifications have been checked at interview, and I have checked other peoples when recruiting. For certain jobs checking is a bog standard procedure.

Mine have always been checked too, as have my civil servant daughter's. Anybody applying for a job which requires working towards professional exams will have their qualifications checked too.

You are absolutely right Galaxy
Teaching jobs are absolute sticklers for qualifications.
I wonder if the Literacy and Numeracy Skills Tests are still obligatory?
I found learning all of the knowledge needed to pass the Numeracy Skills Test incredibly difficult.
No one seems to care about A levels though

It's probably for the best fanny, I am hoping the medical profession is the same, otherwise I could get a job as a doctor and that wpuldnt be helpful to anyone

No, I was part of the first GCSE cohort in 1988. I’m 50.
I do have one O level though, in Art, done in December 1987, the final time that you could do it

Sorry, my last post was to Growstuff

Aha! I hadn't realised how young you are. I apologise for my error.

That’s okay!

Galaxy

It's probably for the best fanny, I am hoping the medical profession is the same, otherwise I could get a job as a doctor and that wpuldnt be helpful to anyone

Exactly! Where would you draw the line?

Grade 4 in English and Maths correlates (sort of) to National Curriculum level 4, which is achieved by about half of 11 year olds.

Do people seriously think that somebody who can't achieve the levels of an average 11 year old should be doing a degree course?