Boris and the Ukraine.

Urmstongran

I respectfully beg to differ regarding the UK’s input. I have checked sources across several newspapers (some of which I do t usually read) and I’m proud and impressed by our massive involvement in so many ways.
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I'm not sure who or what you disagree with Urmstongran. We have done quite a lot and have a right a) to be proud of that and b) to keep pushing our great leader for more.

Are we a "massive" power? No. Are we showing leadership - no, why would we be. We have a leader who follows the path of the news and trends in his government. He does not create leadership.

Perhaps, when you have time, you could explain what you mean.

HolySox

Morning volver. As I've said before, all politicians are liars so difficult to draw a 'line of acceptability'. Rather than debate Partygate, the point I was really making is how free we and the press are in the UK compared to how it could be. We can criticise our government without fear of the police turning up.

Off out now but leave you with this thought - our government has 'courted' Russian Oligarchs and Russian money - do wonder if there has always been a strategic tool to influence Russia. For instance, we can impose economic sanctions that will have an impact on Russia - this wasn't possible in the old days of the USSR. Of course that would vindicate Boris and the Tories relationship with Russians...

I had to read that twice HolySox, my fault, not yours.

I certainly agree that we are privileged to live in a state where criticising the government does not lead to long term imprisonment (yet).

But when I got to the bit about how the government are leading the Russians up the garden path by accepting all those roubles, its all for the good of the UK.... I am actually speechless. Well done, it doesn't happen often.

How can anyone call the EU response to the war in Ukraine sluggish? Within a week huge sanctions were imposed on a scale none of us have ever seen.

It makes me so sad, that when there is war and horror unfolding in front of our eyes, some would still seek division and to castigate 'the other' so as to make their own world view the right one.

Do we not need a break from this kind of hatred?

Urmstongran

Fair comment volver. You are an exacting taskperson keeping me on my toes.
I will tune into this thread later to gain other opinions.
I do hope you ask other posters ‘for links please’ too. Not just letting their opinions fly.
In the spirit of fairness.
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I’m off to get ready. We’re an hour ahead and popular tapas bars are buzzing with the locals before 1pm on the weekend!

Opinions are fine.

Making statements of opinion and spreading untruths as though they were fact, is not.

Enjoy your patatas bravas

Morning volver. As I've said before, all politicians are liars so difficult to draw a 'line of acceptability'. Rather than debate Partygate, the point I was really making is how free we and the press are in the UK compared to how it could be. We can criticise our government without fear of the police turning up.

Off out now but leave you with this thought - our government has 'courted' Russian Oligarchs and Russian money - do wonder if there has always been a strategic tool to influence Russia. For instance, we can impose economic sanctions that will have an impact on Russia - this wasn't possible in the old days of the USSR. Of course that would vindicate Boris and the Tories relationship with Russians...

The pages of the Telegraph and Daily Mail today were a crib sheet for people who refer to any critical analysis of our leader's performance as Boris Bashing.

But hey, Germany only sent helmets. There always has to be some 'other' to blame.

Fair comment volver. You are an exacting taskperson keeping me on my toes.
I will tune into this thread later to gain other opinions.
I do hope you ask other posters ‘for links please’ too. Not just letting their opinions fly.
In the spirit of fairness.
?

I’m off to get ready. We’re an hour ahead and popular tapas bars are buzzing with the locals before 1pm on the weekend!

HolySox Given that you value our freedoms so much I would be very interested to hear your opinion on the governments plan to introduce laws enabling protesters to be sent to jail merely for protesting?

The parties weren't merely 'drinking wine' they were a clear sign of a government that didn't/couldn't/wouldn't follow the rules of our society - rules it had put in place just days before.

Partygate should fade into the background given the horror unfolding in Ukraine, but when we are able we should immediately return to rooting out the the corruption, lies and lack of integrity at the heart of our government.

Urmstongran I don't think its appropriate at times like these to slate our own government, or say anything to diminish their attempts to make things better. So I'm generally keeping quiet.

But spreading untruths such as "the Germans only sent helmets" is falling for the propaganda spread by such ridiculous, self serving outlets as the Telegraph and the Mail. When you say some countries were "sluggish" at the start, we're only 10 days in. This is the start.

No sorry volver it’s Sunday and we’re about to go out for a tapas lunch over here. It would take too long. I read articles from the Telegraph (natch, I subscribe to digital), the DM, quick peek in The Times, the NYT and the Irish Journal. My overall impression is that we can be proud of the UK’s assistance. We sent useful combat stuff when the Germans sent helmets. We trained Ukrainian personnel while the Italians worried about their Gucci handbag sales.

Look, it isn’t a competition. I was just stating how sluggish some countries were at the start. Every effort helps, of course it does and the EU have since deliberated and played catch up. But Boris bashing is a popular sport on here and credit where it’s due, I don’t think it’s justified now regarding Ukraine is all.

HolySox

The conflict has put things in perspective. In the UK we are free, well the press is free, to campaign against the government because they may have had a glass of wine in lockdown ... compared to a country that has a 'strong leader'. Putin has sent his country into war for his own personal ideals but will lock up any citizen for 15 years for saying so! Partygate might have given government opponents opportunity to challenge the integrity of Boris and his party ... but I am left thinking Partygate is so trivial in light of what we could have!
Boris held the helm and steered us through COVID and so far I am happy with his leadership in the current crisis. Still praying for a swift resolution in Ukraine.

Do you have a "line of acceptability" HolySox? One that separates genocidal maniacs from inveterate liars who are unfit to lead?

Because just because one country is led my an autocrat, that doesn't mean that we should just roll over and say, well at least Boris hasn't invaded anywhere. He's not so bad, is he?

I think my standards are slightly higher than well at least hes not Putin.

Apology accepted Urmstongran

Got any links or evidence to support your other assertions?

Apologies volver calling it Scots Army. It was sloppy and lazy shorthand on my part.

From Wiki:
“Wallace attended the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, before he was commissioned in 1991 into the Scots Guards.[4] From 1991 to 1998, he served in Germany, Cyprus, Belize, and Northern Ireland, rising to the rank of captain. During his time in Northern Ireland, he was mentioned in dispatches in 1992 for an incident in which the patrol he was commanding captured an entire IRA active service unit attempting to carry out a bomb attack against British troops.”

The conflict has put things in perspective. In the UK we are free, well the press is free, to campaign against the government because they may have had a glass of wine in lockdown ... compared to a country that has a 'strong leader'. Putin has sent his country into war for his own personal ideals but will lock up any citizen for 15 years for saying so! Partygate might have given government opponents opportunity to challenge the integrity of Boris and his party ... but I am left thinking Partygate is so trivial in light of what we could have!
Boris held the helm and steered us through COVID and so far I am happy with his leadership in the current crisis. Still praying for a swift resolution in Ukraine.

Urmstongran

I respectfully beg to differ regarding the UK’s input. I have checked sources across several newspapers (some of which I do t usually read) and I’m proud and impressed by our massive involvement in so many ways.
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Got any links?

Incidentally, in your other post - there is no "Scots Army".

Do think that Johnson must thanks whoever is his guardian angel for this war in Ukraine. So timely for him. Provided, of course, nobody digs too deep as to where so much Conservative money had come from.

But he just cannot stop himself from lying -
Even now - In this weeks PMQ’s the PM claimed: (Britain has) taken more people fleeing theatres of conflict since 2015 than any other country in Europe.
Fact
Germany took more refugees in a single year (2019) than UK did in in 6 years from 2015 to 2020.
France has taken 3 times the number PM is claiming for UK in the same period.
Then a repeat of that old lie that this government is building 48 new hospitals. Fact: most hospitals claimed in this figure are rebuilds or renovations. The actual new builds are so from the planning state, it will be years before they are built.

I respectfully beg to differ regarding the UK’s input. I have checked sources across several newspapers (some of which I do t usually read) and I’m proud and impressed by our massive involvement in so many ways.
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No. It’s ironic IMO that we have IMO the lease competent and capable prime minister in the history of this country landed with a pandemic and now a potential world war.

The people we hear on news programmes are generally experts in their field. The contrast is palpable.

As for Brexit, this tragic situation has shown how much of a small cog we are compared to the EU and US. The idea that we set a lead in any way is not just laughable it is irritating. Johnson could talk about us all working together but he has to come up with the unbelievable idea that he is a leader. We have seen the difference between leadership and dictatorship and that shows us, if we need to be shown, where Johnson sits in that spectrum.

I think we will have to wait and see but I think he will bounce back as we move out of the pandemic. Much of the Western world will be knocked sideways by inflation due to various factors at play so any Brexit downsides (maybe less than some fear?) as such will be difficult to extrapolate. In the short term he’s lucky to have Ben Wallace (ex Scots Army) as his wingman as Minister for Defence - he could still have been listening to the hapless Gavin Williamson.
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The Conservatives have prostituted themselves to Big Money, wherever it comes from.

The dangers of Chinese money occurred to them a couple of years ago, when the dangers of heavy Chinese investment in electronic equipment and the nuclear industry occurred to them after it looked as if China might dominate both industries in this country.

The dangers of big Russian money have taken longer to strike Mainly, I suspect, because most Russian Oligarchs were making so much money in their own country, we were seen merely as a good country to launder money and live lives of excessive spending and where they could schmooze the ruling party to make sure that they kept everything working in their favour.

i am cynical enough to believe it would have been the same, if Labour had been in power, Plenty people there who would have been more than happy to jump on the gravy train.

I think Maggie saved The Falklands. Doesn’t look like anyone least of all Boris can save Ukraine.

The complex and murky relationships between the conservatives and Russia are yet to be fully understood. Can’t imagine full disclosure will benefit Johnson or his party

I'm trying to imagine what this will mean for our country as a whole. The world knows that our ruling party has prostituted itself to Russia. How do we unravel that and find a way to hold our head up high again?

I hope that Boris's demise is merely delayed by this and that he will go swifty followed by his party.

Definitely not. He’s even had his toddler hair cut to look more statesman like, but it doesn’t fool most. He’s still the same shallow inept character as he was as foreign secretary in May’s government, and it’s quite worrying that our future is in his hands.
I wonder whether we’ll ever get full disclosure Iam but it’s rather concerning.