Boris and the Ukraine.

I am behind the Scottish football team. If they play in an international match I support them.

However I do not pretend to have been the person responsible for Scotland having a football team.

I am behind them, I support them, I back them.

Just like Russia were behind the "yes" side in the 2014 Scottish referendum.

I do not think that the Russians were "behind the separatists", which implies that the independence movement was initiated, funded and driven by a foreign power. That's what is offensive. To suggest such a thing right at the moment, is not acceptable.

I don’t interpret that being ‘behind the separatists’ means initiating, funding and driving a campaign. I read it as being supportive of such a campaign, support which can take many forms. Let’s not overegg the omelette. Unless it’s true. ?

OK, one more post, in case anybody thinks I am denying reality.

I have no doubt at all that there was Russian interference in the Scottish Referendum. I think it took advantage of the political situation of the time. They are exploitative and manipulative.

I do not think that the Russians were "behind the separatists", which implies that the independence movement was initiated, funded and driven by a foreign power. That's what is offensive. To suggest such a thing right at the moment, is not acceptable.

I am not intending to offend you or any other supporters of Scottish Independence, but surely you can see the conflict in believing that Russian money was behind Trump, Brexit, funding the Tory party all recent societal upheavals but you will not accept that there was Russian money behind the Scottish independent movement? You are sincere in your beliefs in the independence movement and those who support Brexit and Trump no doubt feel the same.

Oh, OK, Silly me.

So it's only an exaggeration if I say it?

I'm not continuing with this any more, as the thread has been completely derailed and I'm sure its my fault, no sarcasm implied.

No, it just means that money had been donated to the cause in an underhand way.

I am sorry these are all gross over exaggerations and misinterpretations of what has been said.

Yes it is, isn't it M0nica. To say "Russian money was behind the Scottish separatists in 2014" is an awful exaggeration, isn't M0nica?

And I didn't say it. Someone else did. Maybe you could explain to them why it such a gross exaggeration. Given that I've explained how offensive it is.

volver Someone says that the Russian 'actively backed' Scottish Independence' and then you go on about
Are you really saying it was a Russian plot? That we were all either duped or wicked?

Russian money was behind the Scottish separatists in 2014

Which is why insinuations that the Russians were driving it are more offensive than you can possibly know.

I am sorry these are all gross over exagerations and misinterpretations of what has been said.

Let us put Scottish Independence in parallel with the election of Donald Trump. In both cases Russia was supporting them through both fake internet sites and cyber misinformation. In both cases some Russian money may have got through to support the different causes.

But in each case each campaign had many strong adherents in their respective countries, whether they had any contact with Russian money or not and also the majority of the money financing those campaigns, came from those who supported the ideas and lived and voted in the countries concerned.

So no one was 'duped' or anything else. Both were perfectly legitimate and popular causes, with almost entirely local support and finance.

It is possible that their was some misinformation and money round the edges that had a Russian source and yes, a few people may have had their vote influenced by reading information supporting it coming from Russian sources or paid for by Russian money, but I doubt it was sufficient to turn the vote.

Gross exaggeration does not help your argument.

Casdon

tickingbird this is getting ridiculous.

This is what an unfounded allegation is:
Unfounded: where there is no evidence or proper basis which supports the allegation being made. It might also indicate that the person making the allegation misinterpreted the incident or was mistaken about what they saw. Alternatively, they may not have been aware of all the circumstances.

You’re wrong. Unfounded means having no foundation or basis in fact. I’ve seen David Baddiel live years ago - he wasn’t funny, in fact we left before the end and sat in the bar with several others not in our party who were of the same opinion. Therefore, my statement was not unfounded.

Allegation - a claim or assertion that someone has done something wrong or even illegal, typically without proof. Therefore, yet again, you are wrong. I have seen DB live and on tv and don’t find him funny.

Disagree with me by all means but don’t accuse me of of making ‘unfounded allegations’ please. Mr Baddiel may be a thoroughly decent man but I don’t find him funny.

It’s interesting that one of his shows was based around all his poor reviews. He must have had an awful lot in order to create a whole show but then, according to you, these critics were all making unfounded allegations.

I’ll leave it there as the threads derailed yet again into Scotland’s fight for independence. I’ll leave them to it,

I have said on several occasions on this thread GillT57 that I agree that there was undoubtedly Russian interference in the referendum, and that they were probably trying to undermine confidence in the democratic process. I'm absolutely sure there was disinformation that could be traced back to Russian interference. I'm not an idiot.

But in no way whatsoever will I agree that they "backed" the campaign and were instrumental in making it happen. That implies that those of us who have worked for years to get to a situation where a referendum was happening were manipulated by the Russians all the way along.

That I won't agree with, and anybody who suggests it doesn't appreciate the motivations of the independence movement.

But surely most of us acknowledge the influence of Russian money in the Brexit campaign? Aaron Banks, Farage etc plus everyone's bogeyman Cummings and Cambridge Analytica. If you acknowledge this volver, plus all the money sloshing around in the Tory party, why can you not accept the influence of Russian money in the Scottish Independence campaign? To my mind it is all part of the plan to isolate and split GB. Many people believe fervently in Scottish Independence, and many believe fervently in Brexit so you cannot condemn one group for being misled without acknowledging it happened to the other.

Someone suggests that a political campaign I was involved with was funded by the Russians and I'm the one having a go?

Okaaayyy.....

volver

Are you really saying it was a Russian plot? That we were all either duped or wicked?

Your first sentance does not imply the second.

Can't you just stop having a go at other people. You seem determined to make personal attacks today.

I’m very impressed with Ben Wallace. Don’t know much about him but he does seem to be a rare anti brexit government minister.

I did more than "support" it, believe you me. Which is why insinuations that the Russians were driving it are more offensive than you can possibly know.

As far as I know volver you were not the driving force behind that movement. You did not instigate it, any more than the Russians did, but it seems that you did back it. You supported it. You were behind it, just as Russia was and Alex Salmond was.

I can agree with you on one point. Alex Salmond is a disgrace.

Are you really saying it was a Russian plot? That we were all either duped or wicked?

Correct. There is no doubt that Russia actively backed separating Scotland from the rest of the UK.

Its clear that you will never acknowledge that it is offensive to say that a perfectly valid and democratic movement was bankrolled by the Russians. Not just that the Russian interfered with it, which they certainly did, but that they backed it. They made it happen. They were in charge.

So that someone with very little understanding of the situation can come along and say that the Russians were the driving force behind it, that those supporting it were either dupes or they were wicked.

I give up.

Correct. Russian money was used to back separating Scotland from the rest of the UK.

I have never accused you or anyone else of being a saboteur or traitor.

Oh? I'll just post this again then:

Russian money was behind the Scottish separatists in 2014

I have never accused you or anyone else of being a saboteur or traitor.

We all admire President Zelensky who is fighting for the whole of Ukraine including the Crimea and the separatist regions of Donetsk and Luhansk which are backed by Russia.

Well I had a look at the articles. None of them actually said that the Russian propaganda was trying to support the independence side, but I haven't read the report as its behind a paywall, so maybe that does.

What the articles say is that the Russian influence was promoting the fact that the conduct of the vote was irregular, which was obviously an attempt to undermine democracy in this Union. But if you were inclined to believe that the independence movement was a force for evil, I guess you could jump to all sorts of conclusions.

But let's all remember that the winning side tends to re-write history, and changing the narrative to one where the independence supporters are saboteurs and traitors just isn't on.

If you prefer I could rephrase that as "Russian money backed the breakup of the UK", which is indisputable.

And while my dander is still up...

The independence referendum was in 2014, Salmond got his program in 2017. I have no idea of Russia's influence on the man but we weren't all watching RT during the referendum and being influenced by the Russians.