Nicola ... again. Shut up woman! Are you for real?

If people don't like the SNP government, vote for somebody else. Same as if people don't like the Conservative government, vote for somebody else.

However if you think that the people of the country you live in aren't clever enough to vote for a government that you personally approve of, that's a whole different thing. And not very nice.

And sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam. But even if every seat in Scotland had gone Labour in 2019, the UK would still have a Conservative WM majority.

And sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam. But even if every seat in Scotland had gone Labour in 2019, the UK would still have a Conservative WM majority.

The SNP did vote with the Tories to help to oust the Callaghan Government.

And if we had a GE now and Scotland voted majority Labour ? I wonder.

It's a pity Scotland has produced some excellent Labour MPs.

Oh no, not this again.

Before most of today's Scottish cabinet were born.

What next? The Tories wanted appeasement of Hitler? John Maclean was more or less Labour so they're no good either?

Callistemon21

^There is no way any country other than England can WIN any vote ,never has been never will be^ .

There used to be, paddyann, when Scotland was staunchly Labour with some great Labour MPS and before the Labour vote got diverted to the SNP.
Wales - mainly Labour, Scotland was mainly Labour plus the England Labour voters = a Labour Government.

I got disparaged for saying that previously but it is a fact.

I was thinking along those lines, too, while reading paddyann's post, Callistemon.

And sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam. But even if every seat in Scotland had gone Labour in 2019, the UK would still have a Conservative WM majority.

I think that's a bit irrelevant to the point that Callistemon was trying to make (if I'm reading it right) . With input from Scottish Labour MPs during a Labour government it was likely that Scottish interests were given more consideration (though, TBH, I don't know if it worked like that or not)

I'm all for Scotland becoming independent if that's what the Scots want.

On the matter of the competence of the SNP I have no idea who is right or wrong.

Seats in Scotland - 59

Seats in Wales - 40

Seats in NI - 18

Seats in England - 553

Explain to me again how the smaller countries can make a difference to the outcome if they think differently to England?

MaizieD

^And sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam. But even if every seat in Scotland had gone Labour in 2019, the UK would still have a Conservative WM majority.^

I think that's a bit irrelevant to the point that Callistemon was trying to make (if I'm reading it right) . With input from Scottish Labour MPs during a Labour government it was likely that Scottish interests were given more consideration (though, TBH, I don't know if it worked like that or not)

I'm all for Scotland becoming independent if that's what the Scots want.

On the matter of the competence of the SNP I have no idea who is right or wrong.

We don't want "consideration" We want to decide for ourselves.

Yes yes, not all of us, before somebody pipes up with that.

On the matter of the competence of the SNP I have no idea who is right or wrong.

Well that's a whole other thread But the WM government isn't very competent at the moment.

Does anybody think that we should just give in and let our neighbours govern us, because today's government are useless and corrupt?

"For all you incensed about Ukraine losing its Independence, spare a thought for us....we had our stolen/sold out by a few aristos for English gold"

My personal view is this, Scottish Independence is entirely the prerogative of Scottish people to decide and as an English person I butt out.

However, I will say this PaddyAnn you are the worst advocate for Scottish Independence you make everything personal and very, very anti English, quite clearly you can't help yourself. On the recent thread about starvation in the Ukraine in the 1930s, you go off at on a complete irrelevant tangent regarding the Irish Famine at the hands of the English relating it only to your family history. Around a million Irish left during those times, where the hell do you think they all went? up to your corner of Scotland, sure some would have gone to Glasgow, but the vast majority who didn't leave for the US and other places, came down into England, like my grandmother's maternal Limerick people who settled in London. Anyone who grew up in a catholic community like I did, will know from their church and school, every man and his dog therein had Irish relatives somewhere, many of my friends were 2nd generation, their parents coming across to England post war. I don't know why you find it necessary to keep raking up the injustices of the past, we all know what happened, you won't be the only one who had ancestors who died as a result of the famine many of us in England will have had them too, but we didn't know them, they were just that ancestors, although from your standpoint you make the 1840s seem like yesterday and you lived through it with them. The past is the past, there isn't anyone here who shaped it, it's gone! unlike what is happening in the here and now to the people of Ukraine.

There are Scottish posters here who can argue logically and dispassionately and their posts are worth reading, yours I'm afraid are just ridden with rancour and like me there will be those of us who on seeing your name know exactly what to expect.

volver

MaizieD

And sorry to repeat myself ad nauseam. But even if every seat in Scotland had gone Labour in 2019, the UK would still have a Conservative WM majority.

I think that's a bit irrelevant to the point that Callistemon was trying to make (if I'm reading it right) . With input from Scottish Labour MPs during a Labour government it was likely that Scottish interests were given more consideration (though, TBH, I don't know if it worked like that or not)

I'm all for Scotland becoming independent if that's what the Scots want.

On the matter of the competence of the SNP I have no idea who is right or wrong.

We don't want "consideration" We want to decide for ourselves.

Yes yes, not all of us, before somebody pipes up with that.

We don't want "consideration" We want to decide for ourselves.

I do realise that, you know.. I have said on many an occasion that I'm supportive of Scottish independence.

All I was trying to say was that prior to the rise of the SNP the Scottish Labour MPs had a chance of pushing Scottish issues if Labour was in government. . It makes no difference now, because, as you point out, even with Scottish Labour MPs Labour wouldn't have had a majority in 2019.

It's an academic point, really.

I have a great deal of sympathy for those wanting an independent Scotland. I often think the North of England would be better on it's own too. However, I do think there is a positive reason for neighbours working together, supporting one another.

I wonder if a new structure for the UK Government - not being also an English government - would help. If, for instance, representatives in the UK government stood for an area about the size of the Mayoralities. Areas of Scotland will have much in common with areas of the other countries. This would be the UK that countries join not one where they are assumed to be there to provide for a London centric union.

You would also then need an English Parliament.

paddyann54

Behind Westminster are your *Urmstongrans" who think WE should SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN ...because they obviously know more about Scotland and her people than we do .

To be fair though, she thinks the same about Brexit, and thinks that those of us who voted to remain should get over it. There is a pattern.

Callistemon21

^There is no way any country other than England can WIN any vote ,never has been never will be^ .

There used to be, paddyann, when Scotland was staunchly Labour with some great Labour MPS and before the Labour vote got diverted to the SNP.
Wales - mainly Labour, Scotland was mainly Labour plus the England Labour voters = a Labour Government.

I got disparaged for saying that previously but it is a fact.

I agree, the disappearance of Scottish Labour is a disaster for the entire country, because without a significant number of Labour MPs returned by Scotland, there is little hope of any of us getting rid of this disastrous Tory administration. I am not sure of the numbers without looking it up, but because the SNP have swallowed up much of the Labour vote, ironically, it has given the Tories the likelihood of victory at the next GE. What the SNP supporters fail to acknowledge is that many English people are deeply unhappy with the Tories, deeply unhappy with the Brexit result, but because of the focus on Scottish Independence, the English will be stuffed.

This SNP supporter knows fine well that there are lots of English people unhappy about the Tories. We're not stupid.

We're also not here to save you from yourselves.

That wasn't what I meant Volver, what I meant was that there are implications countrywide, and perhaps not all SNP supporters recognise the damage that has been done to Scottish Labour. Your last comment was rather unkind

GillT57

Callistemon21

There is no way any country other than England can WIN any vote ,never has been never will be .

There used to be, paddyann, when Scotland was staunchly Labour with some great Labour MPS and before the Labour vote got diverted to the SNP.
Wales - mainly Labour, Scotland was mainly Labour plus the England Labour voters = a Labour Government.

I got disparaged for saying that previously but it is a fact.

I agree, the disappearance of Scottish Labour is a disaster for the entire country, because without a significant number of Labour MPs returned by Scotland, there is little hope of any of us getting rid of this disastrous Tory administration. I am not sure of the numbers without looking it up, but because the SNP have swallowed up much of the Labour vote, ironically, it has given the Tories the likelihood of victory at the next GE. What the SNP supporters fail to acknowledge is that many English people are deeply unhappy with the Tories, deeply unhappy with the Brexit result, but because of the focus on Scottish Independence, the English will be stuffed.

Gill
I began to wonder if I was a lone voice and being illogical but I am reassured by your post.

1979 - the SNP MPs at Westminster sided with the Tories in a vote of no confidence in James Callaghan, then the Tories led by Margaret Thatcher won.

That nice Mr Callaghan's Government was hopeless but the vote would not have gone the way of the Tories had the SNP voted with Labour.

The next GE, incidentally, was the one and only time my father voted Tory in his long life! Our jaws dropped.

I do think that nearly everybody in Scotland is aware of the implications of the collapse of Labour. I had high hopes of Mr Sarwar but he hasn't set the heather on fire.

Whatever people say about it, the SNP have an offer that appeals to many people in Scotland, and Labour don't any more.

I think that most people in Scotland look at the English electorate and see the support for the Tories' agenda, and it doesn't chime with our priorities any more. So while we can sympathise with the swing to the right in England, we can't take responsibility for trying to fix it.

Blaming the SNP for Thatcherism? Like I said, we're not here to save you from yourselves.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/the-staggers/2019/03/did-snp-bring-really-down-callaghan-government-and-pave-way-thatcherism

I'm a fan of Sarwar too. I had high hopes of him. The only reason SNP are in the position they're in is because the opposition won't/can't work together.
What I want is a government that genuinely works for the benefit of the people of Scotland rather fixating only on independence. Working together is the only way life can improve and by this I mean working constructively with the other parts of the UK for our mutual benefit.
There are good people scattered among all parties but none concentrated in one. If only we could have a government of national unity with MSPs that we could respect. Am not hopeful.

Yes, they went against their own values in 1979.

Blaming the SNP for Thatcherism? Like I said, we're not here to save you from yourselves.

And unfortunately I can't save the Scots either.

I'm in Wales in case you've forgotten.

And unfortunately I can't save the Scots either.

That's all right Callistemon We're not looking for saviours. We'll take responsibility for ourselves, thanks.

Marydoll

*paddyann*, I understand exactly what you mean about an English parliament.
As Aveline has made clear, it is a UK parliament, however, as the majority of MPS are English and it is a very large majority, Scots MPS will be voices crying in the wilderness and have little or no influence. For that reason, you could say that it is an English parliament, with one country having the majority vote.

At least with devolution, we can have some influence in how our country is run.

Well, at least we have devolution volver but unless the Scots vote to leave the Union, it's as Marydoll says.

I still think the Scottish Labour vote helped in the past.

I very much doubt that the Tories will get such a large majority at the next general election. Things could be very different then.