Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

GrannyGravy13

I would like to know what trisher and Gagajo think of the folks that enjoy her books?

Do you look down on folks who deviate from so called literary giants ?

No why should I? Really what is this idea that criticism is unacceptable or elitist. I love some writers like Margaret Atwood or Pat Barker, but I can read anything and often do. Some of it is rubbish and I will happily admit it is.

Mollygo

*Trisher, My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way*.
My DH wants to know what you criticised her for if you don’t read her books and your criticism was before she said sex is immutable.
I’d like to pass on your explanation, and maybe others on here would like to know as well.

Well we have been here before, much of the HP storylines are lifted from other writers in particular Jill Murphy and the Worst Witch. I have read the HP books, one of the things primary school teachers do is read the books children do. It was sometime ago, so I'm sorry I won't be posting any details. She generaly uses cliches and over worked phrases if I remember correctly. Much like the RG book.
I really don't understand why anyone imagines her trans stance would influence or inform my attitude towards her and her writing.

GJ
Literature for those who misunderstand the word.
Literature is a term used to describe written and sometimes spoken material. Derived from the Latin word literature meaning "writing formed with letters," literature most commonly refers to works of the creative imagination, including poetry, drama, fiction, nonfiction, and in some instances, journalism, and song.

I would like to know what trisher and Gagajo think of the folks that enjoy her books?

Do you look down on folks who deviate from so called literary giants ?

Nothing like women having a pile on to another woman. In the words of Deborah Meaden; I'm out, may even go and pick up an Attwood from my book shelf. Goodnight, see some of you in the safe grounds of political threads where nobody gets slated for books they say they have enjoyed.

Trisher, My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way.
My DH wants to know what you criticised her for if you don’t read her books and your criticism was before she said sex is immutable.
I’d like to pass on your explanation, and maybe others on here would like to know as well.

Single sex spaces for men and women are protected under the Equality Act and as far as I know no one has even mentioned changing this.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

GrannyGravy13

Gagajo discussing/dissecting an authors work in University and/or school is not the same as literary snobbery.

Well, it's my bread and butter. It's not snobbery, it's wanting to be so caught up in a book (as I am with Atwood for example) that I don't notice the quality of the writing.

Novels are products, in the same way movies are. Some are good, some are bad, some are popular, some are trashy, some are flops. JKR's novels aren't flops. Doesn't make 'em literature.

Gagajo discussing/dissecting an authors work in University and/or school is not the same as literary snobbery.

Oh I agree about her getting children reading. I just wonder at some of the other stuff she manages to publish. I've no objection to pot boilers I quite enjoy a bit of unchallenging writing. But I don't understand why it's wrong to criticise her.I do it with lots of other writers.

No denying that Jk Rowling has done some good and been incredibly successful financially.

Just wish she had left it there because some of those children grew up and continued to read her words, some of them are trans, and she broke their hearts

GrannyGravy13

GillT57 I abhor literary snobbery, definitely indicates more about those who practice it than the authors they criticise.

Perhaps you should talk to universities, exam boards, schools then. Writers are judged by their product. How else?

GillT57 I abhor literary snobbery, definitely indicates more about those who practice it than the authors they criticise.

As I said, I'm grateful (as a teacher) that she got children reading.

But her writing ISN'T that good. She isn't Murdoch or Atwood or Morrison. I don't take that opinion from abridged versions. From the real thing. I read a lot and have read some of her stuff. The least bad I read (IMO) was The Casual Vacancy, but even that was average.

But fair play to her. She got generations of children reading and has made a huge fortune from her writing.

JaneJudge

^That person has some concerns about how changes in sex and gender law could have consequences for women and girls^

Yup women with disability who under current law can specify female only personal care

Why are people not concerned about changes that affect other vulnerable female born groups?

It isn't being transphobic it is being sensible. Safeguarding shouldn't be affected by changes to law surrounding this issue imo

Excatly. One of the brave dissenters on GN who said that there were other things to consider when choosing who to vote for, did say that it may change people's mind if the female carer they has requested due to the intimate nature of their care, turned out to be 6foot 3 and bearded. But a 'woman'

JaneJudge

^That person has some concerns about how changes in sex and gender law could have consequences for women and girls^

Yup women with disability who under current law can specify female only personal care

Why are people not concerned about changes that affect other vulnerable female born groups?

It isn't being transphobic it is being sensible. Safeguarding shouldn't be affected by changes to law surrounding this issue imo

Janejudge I share those concerns but safeguarding and DBS checks should apply to all. We can't imply that women are always safe in situations looking after children or vulnerable people or those rules would not exists.

We can't deny someone a job in a profession where they may see multiple clients on the basis they are trans, we don't do that on basis of their birth gender so why would we change that?

I've had male doctors examine me and male nurses attend me and male midwives present. I had to have a word with myself about it because, these are qualified people who have passed relevant checks and training and in the end, it was fine.

Now in a situation where someone is vulnerable and states their needs clearly, I'm sure that they can state they do not want a man or a trans woman and its down to the common sense of those involved to respect that, in a time of fear or vulnerability, this is what is needed.

I haven't seen any male or trans person, in any profession say it should be otherwise and I wouldn't agree with them if they did.

trisher

Mollygo

I really shouldn’t let myself be tempted, but if you don’t like an author, for any reason, you can always find things that don’t suit you. But this is a fun deviation from the subject.
trisher
It's not really about the subject but I just looked at the books she's written as RG and one had an audio sample. I fell about laughing when Strike stood "his eyes sweeping the pavement" Oh come on no one writes such tosh!!!

trisher
Oh come on no one writes such tosh!!!
That from you trisher????

One of the absolute no-nos taught in any good writing class (and even in good English classes) is using a phrase like that- the classic being "his eyes swept the room and came to rest on the mantelpiece"
I do wonder when JK Rowling became above criticism.
My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way.

Well, all the literary experts on here looking down their noses at JKR and RGalbraith, has it dawned on you that an audio book is abridged? May not be word for word? I repeat; I like her writing, in both names, and think the sneering comments say more about those who write them than those of us who enjoy her books. Is this all part of the brave new world where anyone can be whatever they want to be, as long as it is approved by the literary police?

Ilovecheese

Let me put forward one of the compromises I think would be a good one.
Regarding prisons:
If a person has been living as a transwoman for some years and has then committed a non violent crime, their request to be housed in a women's prison could be considered.

If a man has been living as a man all his life and then commits an act of sexual violence for which he is convicted, and he then and only then, decides he wants to be a woman and be sent to a woman's prison then his request should not be considered.

I would be happy with that. It is sex offenders and those who have a sudden 'conversion' who worry me.

It's not really about the subject but I just looked at the books she's written as RG and one had an audio sample. I fell about laughing when Strike stood "his eyes sweeping the pavement" Oh come on no one writes such tosh!!!

trisher
Oh come on no one writes such tosh!!!
That from you trisher????
One of the absolute no-nos taught in any good writing class (and even in good English classes) is using a phrase like that- the classic being "his eyes swept the room and came to rest on the mantelpiece"
I do wonder when JK Rowling became above criticism.
My criticism of her began way before her stance on trans issues by the way.

I’m sure it did trisher.???

JRR Tolkien's name was John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.

JK Rowling's name is Joanne Rowling. The K is just made up.

I have read that Bloomsbury requested her not to use her real first name as it would put little boys off reading her book.

Pretending not to be female once is interesting, pretending twice starts to get suspicious.

But I'm sure I've got that wrong ?

GagaJo

Gossamerbeynon1945

Apparently, 15 year old girls are now having double mastectomies. Did all these politicians miss their biology lessons in school. Biggest load of rubbish I have ever read - look at Robert Winston on Question Time. He says what I think, and he is an expert! no-one can change sex - it's impossible!

Have you got a link to this Gossamerbeynon1945? Given that I had to wait 2 years for a double mastectomy, post cancer, despite having the BRCA gene, and had to go through a course of therapy first, I'd be very interested to know how 15 year olds manage to bypass all the 'prevent' intervention.

I've been searching for this Gagajo the only info I can find says the NHS don't do surgery until the young person is an adult. Private double masectomies are available in the UK but I would imagine few 15 year olds could afford them and surely richparents aren't paying for them?

volver

FannyCornforth

I did find it odd that I’d never seen you on the trans based threads volver
I haven’t read the thread yet.

Yeah, and I don't think I'll be on any more.

I agree. Better off on the 'Boris bashing threads' You know where you are there

I think the truth is she actually isn't all that great of a writer. Couldn't agree more. I'm very grateful to her for getting so many children to read. But no, the quality isn't great. Fair enough, recognise JKR for her achievements, but lets not pretend she's a literary giant.

GrannyGravy13

GillT57

Well that didn't take long. Within minutes we have someone who hadn't even read the bloody book carping on with all sorts of silly conspiracies about why J K Rowling chose to use a nom de plume. Of no relevance and no help.

I do find it difficult to understand how someone can be derogatory about an authors writing style and their books when they haven’t read them.

i fail to see why someone's use of a nom de plume is used as an illustration of her view on transgender issues. Many authors use one or more names, often because they are writing books in a different genre and don't wish readers to have any pre-conceived ideas of their style. JKR writing as RGalbraith is very different. I like both.

That person has some concerns about how changes in sex and gender law could have consequences for women and girls

Yup women with disability who under current law can specify female only personal care

Why are people not concerned about changes that affect other vulnerable female born groups?

It isn't being transphobic it is being sensible. Safeguarding shouldn't be affected by changes to law surrounding this issue imo