Do you shop at M&S? Please could you stop?

Well trisher, that could be because you accused me of having a financial stake in M&S and not caring if Ukrainian children died. But mostly I get a bit out of sorts with people who don't listen to the facts of a matter and continue to witter on about their ill-informed view.

I don’t think anyone is denigrating you trisher

I do think there are several posters myself included who question your motives regarding M & S.

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Do you shop at M&S? Please could you stop?152
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Yesterday 21:08 geekesse

On a more general level, why does the OP expect me to change my shopping habits to support her pet cause?

This is not a comment on the situation in Ukraine; it’s simply an observation that opinionated people seem to think they have a right to tell others what they should think and how they should behave. I prefer to decide such things for for myself.

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Yesterday 21:18 Farzanah

I won’t be boycotting M&S because I think, as has been explained, they are not trading in Russia, and are raising thousands for Ukraine appeals and have also donated £20,000 winter clothing.
I wonder if many major companies are donating as much?

Yesterday 21:19 Hetty58

geekesse, I didn't think it read that way at all - just trisher publicising the situation, alerting us to the problem etc. I rarely shop there anyway - so have no problem avoiding doing so - until they clearly have no dealings with Russia.

Yesterday 21:21 trisher

geekesse
On a more general level, why does the OP expect me to change my shopping habits to support her pet cause?

This is not a comment on the situation in Ukraine; it’s simply an observation that opinionated people seem to think they have a right to tell others what they should think and how they should behave. I prefer to decide such things for for myself.
Perhaps because 5 Ukrainian MPs asked the British to do something. It's fine to refuse but try not to belittle the cause which isn't mine but Ukrain's.

Yesterday 21:26 volver

until they clearly have no dealings with Russia.

But they have no dealings with Russia.

All those talking about erring on the side of caution, etc. Why don't you believe the many, many posts on here that explain that M&S are doing the right thing?

By erring on the side of caution you are damaging the business of a company that has done all it can to support Ukraine. It's not a good thing that you are doing.

Yesterday 21:30 trisher

Farzanah
I won’t be boycotting M&S because I think, as has been explained, they are not trading in Russia, and are raising thousands for Ukraine appeals and have also donated £20,000 winter clothing.
I wonder if many major companies are donating as much?
Burger King have given more to the UNCHR 1 million dollars approx £760000 as compared with M&S £500,000 and have also promised any profits made to them. They've also given meal vouchers to the value $2million to NGOs hosting refugees.
Which makes £20,000 look a little really.

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Yesterday 21:32 volver

trisher
geekesse
On a more general level, why does the OP expect me to change my shopping habits to support her pet cause?

This is not a comment on the situation in Ukraine; it’s simply an observation that opinionated people seem to think they have a right to tell others what they should think and how they should behave. I prefer to decide such things for for myself.
Perhaps because 5 Ukrainian MPs asked the British to do something. It's fine to refuse but try not to belittle the cause which isn't mine but Ukrain's.
There were 4 of them. Is there anything about this story that you are reporting accurately?

Yesterday 21:36 Hetty58

volver, 'damaging the business' - hardly a difference with my little budget. I simply don't believe that they're 'doing all they can'. They have done a lot - but just to impress us, to promote and protect their business (obviously). They could do more and should have done it much earlier.

Yesterday 21:40 volver

Hetty58
volver, 'damaging the business' - hardly a difference with my little budget. I simply don't believe that they're 'doing all they can'. They have done a lot - but just to impress us, to promote and protect their business (obviously). They could do more and should have done it much earlier.
Sorry Hetty58. That's just ridiculous. Your little budget is going to be part of a larger, ill thought out boycott.

What else should they do?

Arrange an assassination attempt on Putin?

Yesterday 21:45 icanhandthemback

You can boycott M&S or not according to what you believe. However, anybody in business in Russia will be able to use the trademarks or copyright of anybody because Putin has said that it is ok to do so because of unfriendly behaviour of the countries that own them. So, even if M&S stop all supplies, don't send raw materials grin and do all the right things according to those who think they are doing the wrong things, little will change. M&S will still be a visible presence in Russia.

Yesterday 21:49 trisher

volver
trisher
geekesse
On a more general level, why does the OP expect me to change my shopping habits to support her pet cause?

This is not a comment on the situation in Ukraine; it’s simply an observation that opinionated people seem to think they have a right to tell others what they should think and how they should behave. I prefer to decide such things for for myself.
Perhaps because 5 Ukrainian MPs asked the British to do something. It's fine to refuse but try not to belittle the cause which isn't mine but Ukrain's.
There were 4 of them. Is there anything about this story that you are reporting accurately?
Apologies I didn't check the names and added the 4 who went to Downing street to the one on QT. You are absolutely right there were four. Given special permission to leave their country to travel here to say what is happening and ask for our help. Men cannot leave. But I wonder does the number really matter? You can listen to them or not. It's entirely your choice. If there were 60 would you do as they asked then?

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Yesterday 21:56 volver

Well I'm just casting doubt on whether any fact in anything you've said is true. That's it, really. Accuracy doesn't seem to be a huge feature in your assertions.

icanhandthemback makes an excellent point.

Yesterday 23:16 Dinahmo

I doubt that M & S are sending raw materials to Russia. They certainly don't send milk/cream and eggs to the French company to make the egg custard tarts.

Today 00:36 Hetty58

Dinahmo, no - just enabling their franchises to continue trading - by hiding behind 'legal issues'. I smell a rat.

Today 01:05 Rosie51

I'm amazed that anyone thinks any company can compel Russia to comply with any law or convention. Don't the war crimes currently being brazenly carried out in Ukraine give any clue? So M&S say to the franchisees 'stop trading on our name' Does anybody truly believe they'll say 'sorry, yes of course' ? If so I've several historic UK sites I can sell you......

Today 07:53 GrannyGravy13

If there were to be a mass boycott of M & S or any other U.K. store on the premise that it is still trading in Russia I do hope those folks who boycott will donate that money to the poor souls when they lose their jobs.

As icanhandthemback has posted Vladimir Putin has said that Russia will no longer be abiding by Foreign Trade Mark laws, and that they can continue to be used in Russia despite being withdrawn by the holder of the trademark.

trisher what on earth do you expect M & S and other companies caught in this situation entirely of President Putin’s making to do?

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Today 07:57 MaizieD

Hetty58
Dinahmo, no - just enabling their franchises to continue trading - by hiding behind 'legal issues'. I smell a rat.
Have you read this entire thread and still can't understand that M & S are completely unable to prevent these businesses from trading because they have nothing to do with them apart from the name.

I'll just repost what Dinahmo said earlier after explaining how franchising works, because it is a point I was going to make, too.

Trisher Seeing as how you have not fully understood the nature of this business, how do you expect 5 Ukranian MPs to understand how franchises work. I wonder whether many English MPs understand. Probably not many

Today 09:12 Farzanah

trisher I can understand your motivation in encouraging support for Ukraine at this awful time, but I think that trying to destroy the business of a major British retailer, which employs thousand of people, is necessarily the best way to go.
As others have pointed out they have done what they are able but franchises are out of their control.
They will not be profiting from franchises, and have stopped supplying them.
It is also disingenuous to report that M&S have only given £500,000 because they reported double this amount donating to both UNHCR and UNICEF and are continuing to give.
As I understand it it has been reported that BK cannot close it franchises in Russia because Putin has decreed they should remain open under BK name.

Today 09:32 Mollygo

GG13
trisher what on earth do you expect M & S and other companies caught in this situation entirely of President Putin’s making to do.
Evidently, stop trading in the UK as an useless gesture of solidarity with Ukraine.
(*Stop trading*, meaning the loss of jobs and livelihoods to UK workers because the stores have been boycotted and are no longer viable). Mr Putin, if he is at all interested, would undoubtedly be delighted to know of any extra impact his war was having.
M&S have done what they can, the reason why they cannot control their franchises has been explained.

Today 09:44 trisher

Farzanah
trisher I can understand your motivation in encouraging support for Ukraine at this awful time, but I think that trying to destroy the business of a major British retailer, which employs thousand of people, is necessarily the best way to go.
As others have pointed out they have done what they are able but franchises are out of their control.
They will not be profiting from franchises, and have stopped supplying them.
It is also disingenuous to report that M&S have only given £500,000 because they reported double this amount donating to both UNHCR and UNICEF and are continuing to give.
As I understand it it has been reported that BK cannot close it franchises in Russia because Putin has decreed they should remain open under BK name.
BK franchises are remaining open but BK are donating any profits made to UNCHR. And withdrawing from the financial commitment.
Do we doubt that M&S receive money from their franchise agreement? Franchises are seldom a complete sell out - "you give us x amount and we'll give you our name" and usually an arrangement which is paid for with regular financial commitment "You give us x amount now and x amount in future years"
Quote from the grocer about M&S support
“We are donating £500,000 to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR). We are donating 20,000 items of winter clothing that families need,”

^

Today 09:51 GrannyGravy13

trisher M & S have already donated 1.5 million to UNHCR
It’s all on line if you have a good look as opposed to a I have already made up my mind look,

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Today 09:54 volver

Did you read my post yesterday that explained how BK's trading arrangements Russia have been fundamentally different than M&S's?

I also explained how any future income M&S might be entitled to, (even if they take that remuneration, which I think is unlikely) will probably be sacrificed in their donations to Ukraine?

Any comment on the M&S sponsorship of the Concert for Ukraine?

Today 09:58 maddyone

A mass boycott of M+S would have huge repercussions on jobs in the UK. I cannot see how the failure of M+S in the UK plus the loss of thousands of British jobs in any way helps Ukraine. M+S are doing what they can to support Ukraine.

Today 10:00 GrannyGravy13

volver
Did you read my post yesterday that explained how BK's trading arrangements Russia have been fundamentally different than M&S's?

I also explained how any future income M&S might be entitled to, (even if they take that remuneration, which I think is unlikely) will probably be sacrificed in their donations to Ukraine?

Any comment on the M&S sponsorship of the Concert for Ukraine?
I think those of us who can see the whole picture are banging our heads against the proverbial brick wall…

Today 10:02 trisher

Yes what I fail to understand is why you feel the need to constantly come onto this thread and try to denigrate me.

I haven’t noticed personal denigration of you on this thread unless disagreeing with a poster is ‘personal denigration’.
In that case, take note everyone!
Would you like to highlight where you perceive it’s happened?

I have no idea why all that arrived. Just read the last paragraph.

Mollygo, it appears the gremlins have magically left fro my iPad to your device.

I’m concerned that ‘personal denigration’ is being suggested. I’ve not seen that. I noticed strong exchanges between trisher and volver but no personal denigration.

Thank you Iam64

I would have thought saying I didn't care whether Ukrainian children died was about as close to personal denigration as you could get. But maybe I'm just sensitive that way.

To say anyone doesn’t care if Ukrainian children die is a horrible thing to say to anyone. It’s really not acceptable. You could have had it removed volver but it’s probably better to let it stand so others can see what has been said.

? volver.

volver

Thank you Iam64

I would have thought saying I didn't care whether Ukrainian children died was about as close to personal denigration as you could get. But maybe I'm just sensitive that way.

What I actually said.
By all means disbelieve her because it would interfere with your life in some way and you have shares in M&S or some other reason. But allow that a woman from a war torn country has suggested you do one small thing and if you refuse, for whatever reason, and that war is not brought to swift conclusion because the economy of the agressor country collapses, then perhaps you have helped kill children and if you can live with that that's fine.

I do wonder volver why you feel the need to make out it is me who said about Ukranian children being killed and not the Ukranian MP do you feel it somehow lessens any guilt you feel?

Hetty58

Dinahmo, no - just enabling their franchises to continue trading - by hiding behind 'legal issues'. I smell a rat.

Apologies but I don't understand your point. I was trying to explain that the companies used by M & S will have their own sources for the basic ingredients. How is that enabling their franchises to continue trading?

trisher

volver

Thank you Iam64

I would have thought saying I didn't care whether Ukrainian children died was about as close to personal denigration as you could get. But maybe I'm just sensitive that way.

What I actually said.
By all means disbelieve her because it would interfere with your life in some way and you have shares in M&S or some other reason. But allow that a woman from a war torn country has suggested you do one small thing and if you refuse, for whatever reason, and that war is not brought to swift conclusion because the economy of the agressor country collapses, then perhaps you have helped kill children and if you can live with that that's fine.

I do wonder volver why you feel the need to make out it is me who said about Ukranian children being killed and not the Ukranian MP do you feel it somehow lessens any guilt you feel?

Direct quote from Friday afternoon, from Trisher's post.

By all means disbelieve her because it would interfere with your life in some way and you have shares in M&S or some other reason. But allow that a woman from a war torn country has suggested you do one small thing and if you refuse, for whatever reason, and that war is not brought to swift conclusion because the economy of the aggressor country collapses, then perhaps you have helped kill children and if you can live with that that's fine.

trisher

volver

Did you read my post yesterday that explained how BK's trading arrangements Russia have been fundamentally different than M&S's?

I also explained how any future income M&S might be entitled to, (even if they take that remuneration, which I think is unlikely) will probably be sacrificed in their donations to Ukraine?

Any comment on the M&S sponsorship of the Concert for Ukraine?

Yes what I fail to understand is why you feel the need to constantly come onto this thread and try to denigrate me personally. By all means take no notice of the requests of the Ukranian MPs but your constant posting on something you have no intention of being involved in just makes me wonder why you are so against this action.
Let's not forget for M&S that all donations and support are of course tax deductible.

(a) It's because you persist in not accepting the information given on this thread about the way in which franchises work

(b) Surely you are aware that donations made under the Gift Aid umbrella are also tax deductible, although in a slightly different way. Supposing you wanted to donate £25 to a charity, under Gift Aid you would only pay £20 and the rest would come out of taxes. So not much different to M & S claiming tax relief.

It's very difficult to post the denigrating personal volver posts whenthey extend over so many pages and GN wipes things out if you scroll back, However

You're not really paying attention, are you trisher?
I think those of us who can see the whole picture are banging our heads against the proverbial brick wall…
Accuracy doesn't seem to be a huge feature in your assertions.

Which still leads to the huge question why on earth spend such a lot of time on something you believe is completely wrong. Do you not trust GNers to make up their own minds and do their own research?

Now apparently my financial position is compared to M&Ss sigh If only...

Do you not trust GNers to make up their own minds and do their own research?

?

I think those of us who can see the whole picture are banging our heads against the proverbial brick wall

That was me trisher not volver

I will ask my question again, how would you feel if 1,000’s of folks lost their jobs as a consequence of a M & S boycott?

48 shops over both Ukraine and Russia is chicken feed to Mr.Putins war. Whereas Germany still buying 40% of its gas and oil from Russia is not, it is Germany which financing this evil war machine.

India has also got blood on its hands by brokering a deal with Russia to get Oil at a bargain price, and paying in rupees so that Russia has a credible currency to trade as opposed to the free falling rubel

The links between HSBC who own M&S and FIBA who are also bankers and who aimed to be the third largest bank in Russia by 2021 are probably so well hidden even volver with her financial expertise wouldn't know about them. But the idea that bankers aren't involved that it is just a poor little British company and a little Turkish franchise should be vigorously questioned and examined. Because the bankers have been massively sanctioned they will no doubt need another way of keeping a foothold in Russia and FIBA could supply that. But first they have to stop the Russian shops closing and the economy folding.

Apologies GG13 as I said scrolling back is difficult.

It would be very sad if someon lost thir job, but not quite as sad as a war going on and soldiers killing people

Whereas Germany still buying 40% of its gas and oil from Russia is not, it is Germany which financing this evil war machine.

Would you be so highminded about this if it were the UK buying 40% of their gas and oil from Russia and the supply was suddenly cut off, GG13?

40% is rather a large chunk to abruptly terminate.

^ But first they have to stop the Russian shops closing and the economy folding.^

Has it occurred to you, trisher that the plummeting rouble is doing that anyway?

Well, let's have a go at this.

First, I have very little financial knowledge but I know quite a bit about international partnerships, and co-incidentallly, banking businesses.

HSBC are the JV partner of M&S Bank, and have supported the M&S bank since 2012. However M&S have their own banking licence.

There are 4 major shareholders in M&S and none of them are HSBC.

Maybe HSBC have set up a secret company to have control over the nation's supply of knickers.

I should say too, that in no way are FIBA a little Turkish franchise and anybody who thinks that's what's being said really doesn't get it.

MaizieD

^Whereas Germany still buying 40% of its gas and oil from Russia is not, it is Germany which financing this evil war machine.^

Would you be so highminded about this if it were the UK buying 40% of their gas and oil from Russia and the supply was suddenly cut off, GG13?

40% is rather a large chunk to abruptly terminate.

High minded ?

I would be extremely pissed off as to how my Country had become so reliant on what can only be described as a known hostile country

I am pissed off that our PM has had to go to Saudi to beg for oil.

In these circumstances I think we should be fracking and expanding the gas/oil fields in the North Sea whilst simultaneously working towards us being independent of others with our own sustainable energy.

We should be rapidly learning to be less dependent on fossil fuels, GG13, not rushing to destroy the planet by releasing more.