Apologies for past injustices - where do you stand?

This is a multifaceted question, and there is not a one size fits all answer. I liken it to for instance, say my Great Grandfather killed people during WW1, would meeting their descendants and me apologising mean anything?

There have been many atrocities committed by Countries round the world since time began, let’s educate the coming generations so that these deeds are never repeated.

Acknowledge our past, good and bad, not erase it.

I think the wrongs of the past should be recognised, the fact that imperialism has left all sorts of problematic legacies that impact on future generations is something those in power wouldn't have considered, but foresight is always lacking when borders are drawn up in the sand without any consultation. Apologies however imo cannot be on behalf of the nation only on behalf of the government that presided at the time those atrocities were committed and of course they were of their time. The population of the imperial powers of Europe were almost certainly disenfranchised and had no say in how their country was run, all their efforts went into staying alive I imagine.

An analogy can be made right now to a certain extent, so many Russians risk being imprisoned whilst they are vocally protesting about this ghastly war at pains to draw attention to the fact that this act of aggression engineered by Putin isn't done in their name. However, on a slightly different note, there are many religious institutions for example who need to go on apologising in perpetuity having swept so much under the carpet.

I think wrongs and ills remain relevant whilst people who suffered under them and possibly the next generation who carry the scars of their parents' traumas are still alive. Eventually The Holocaust for example, like other horrors will pass into the mists of time and be part of history. Sadly some atrocities get forgotten quite easily, does anyone remember the genocide the Armenian people suffered at the beginning of the 20th century.?

The past is littered with barbarism. Of course burning people at the stake as witches or for religious beliefs is beyond awful, but apologising really how futile is that! A leader can say all the mea culpas they like on such an issue but it will never change what's been done. Learning about the bigotry, prejudice, misogyny that shaped those beliefs of course but no one today played a part in those terrors. The other question is how far back do you go because eventually we almost celebrate the fact that we were conquered by so many, who hasn't been thrilled when as nation we find artefacts left behind by Romans and Vikings say, but the indigenous populations who were being subjugated and murdered by those invaders probably weren't thrilled living through it.

The past has gone, horrifically slavery hasn't so many people trafficked and abused in our time now. Read a shocking report recently about the young immigrant men working out in the UAE treated so very badly denied enough water in searing heat they now have kidney failure as a consequence.

I am feeling real racism in some comments.. the history of Great Britain is run through with coniving plots, badly behaved rulers, deceit, ill-treatment & lack of care for the general population..... it is actually not a lot different now.... but hey let's look at bad behaviour elsewhere ...

Well said GrannyGravy. To erase the past does a disservice to all who suffered. To acknowledge and learn from it honours their memory.

Germanshepherdsmum you cannot compare slavery and the Irish potato famine. I’m sorry, but generations of people in slavery stolen from their homelands and tortured, raped, underfed and forced to work under British slave masters is very different to your husbands family who had their freedom and were able to leave for a better life.

And those who were left behind and starved because the government refused assistance Dilly? Were they better off than slaves?

There were victims of slavery here and in parts of Brittany when Barbary raiding parties carried off their hapless victims from the west country who suffered the awful fate that anyone who became enslaved did. Some may remember when a huge search ensued after Madeleine McCann went missing a little blonde child in Morocco was sighted as a possibility, she was in fact a Moroccan child living in the Atlas Mountains with her family. It was reported that those genetic traces that made her stand out were from long ago but still found today.

Germanshepherdsmum

Well said GrannyGravy. To erase the past does a disservice to all who suffered. To acknowledge and learn from it honours their memory.

I'm sorry, GG13 & GSM . Who, exactly, is trying to erase the past here?

I have been reading this thread with interest as I don't really know where I stand on making apologies for historic wrongs. So its interesting to see both sides.

However the allegation that the descendants of people taken as slaves were better off than the ones who stayed behind, because they would have been poor? That's kind of pointing me in one particular direction.

And in case we're getting all superior about abolishing slavery, France first abolished it in their colonies in 1794.

I’m seeing a lot of ‘whataboutism’ on this thread in an attempt to minimise and diminish the horrors of slavery and the subsequent contemporary legacy of the imbalance of both wealth and power between the slave owning countries and the enslaved.

But I hope we can all agree that separating peoples from their country, culture, family, to be raped to procreate more slaves then resultant children ripped away from their family, forced to work, tortured and killed if they tried to flee, killed if they became sick and ill, tortured if they couldn’t keep up with their workload over generations, and the legacy that has left on these countries that were raped and pillaged, is one of the greatest stains on British history.

DillytheGardener I haven’t seen anyone denying that the slave trade was absolutely dreadful and barbaric on this thread. (Apologies if I have missed something)

Why wouldn't descendents of the Great Famine ask for an apology GSM? It's not top trumps on Suffering. We certainly can't change the past but it doesn't mean that the many, many horrific injustices of the past should be glossed over and disappear without trace. Apologies may be useless, mealy mouthed, too little too late concessions to make any kind of difference to the actual humans who endured the atrocities but surely recognition, their stories told and honoured, should be the least the descendants of those who actively promoted and vastly profited from vile decisions and policies resulting in abject and, in so many cases, ongoing legacies of misery can do?

And in case we're getting all superior about abolishing slavery, France first abolished it in their colonies in 1794.

And Napoleon reinstated it... (saying this for historical accuracy rather than defending the British record)

And the British only abolished the slave trade. It took them another 27 years to abolish actual slavery.

Come on, GG13 & GSM. I really, really want to know who is attempting to erase history on this thread?

There are certainly a number of people trying to minimise it...

And Napoleon re-instated it, I believe, because slavery was still going on in the British colonies and there were threats from former slave owners that Britain would take over the French colonies and use slave labour there, unless it was reinstated?

History is rarely linear.

I think there are two separate issues emerging from this thread. One is that of apologising for past cruelties to our fellow humans; the other is, for me, the question of the wealth accumulated, and passed down through the generations, by the exercisers of that inhumanity.

I don't think we have to play top trumps over how that wealth was generated; whether it was via slave labour in the 'colonies', almost slave labour in factories, dispossessing the poor of their lands in the pursuit of profits or exporting foodstuffs from a country in the grip of a famine it is all founded on the pursuit of wealth over humanity.

The question that really intrigues me is 'Why are people so bloody respectful of the people who are enjoying that wealth today?'

MaizieD

Come on, GG13 & GSM. I really, really want to know who is attempting to erase history on this thread?

There are certainly a number of people trying to minimise it...

I was not referring to anyone on this thread saying they wanted to erase history MaizieD

I was against the statue being vandalised and removed in Bristol. In my opinion all these so called bad statues should be left with an added plaque describing the history of the man, both good and bad.

We have to acknowledge our past, and locking statues and memorials away is tantamount to erasing history.

Educating each generation of the wrongs of the past should hopefully ensure that they are never repeated.

volver

And Napoleon re-instated it, I believe, because slavery was still going on in the British colonies and there were threats from former slave owners that Britain would take over the French colonies and use slave labour there, unless it was reinstated?

History is rarely linear.

Completely failing to see the logic in that, volver. How would the British be able to take over the French colonies just because the slaves were 'free'?

I suspect his motive was more economic than anything else. Free slaves = less efficient working practices = diminished revenues ?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitehall_Accord

The Whitehall Accord. Good old Henry Dundas, aka Henry IX.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD

Come on, GG13 & GSM. I really, really want to know who is attempting to erase history on this thread?

There are certainly a number of people trying to minimise it...

I was not referring to anyone on this thread saying they wanted to erase history MaizieD

I was against the statue being vandalised and removed in Bristol. In my opinion all these so called bad statues should be left with an added plaque describing the history of the man, both good and bad.

We have to acknowledge our past, and locking statues and memorials away is tantamount to erasing history.

Educating each generation of the wrongs of the past should hopefully ensure that they are never repeated.

You said it, though and GSM ran with it:

Acknowledge our past, good and bad, not erase it.

Why say it if no-one had mentioned it?

It's like a culture war mantra that people just trot out unthinkingly. People pulling down a hated statue of a slave trader were trying to 'erase history'. National Trust properties trying to raise awareness of the source of a property's former owners wealth were 'trying to erase history'.

Please, please; if the stupid phrase isn't relevant to anything that has been said during the discussion, don't use it.

And, FFS, putting a statue (one single bloody statue, not 'statues') in a museum with an explanation of how and why it got there and is no longer standing outside Is NOT 'locking it away'. Please tell me about these locked away memorials, too. I don't keep my finger quite as closely on the fake culture wars button as others clearly do...

sorry MaizieD didn’t realise that your new role as thread prefect means I or anyone else has to ask you before we post anything?

volver

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitehall_Accord

The Whitehall Accord. Good old Henry Dundas, aka Henry IX.

I fail to see the relevance of that to Napoleon reinstating slavery.

GrannyGravy13

sorry MaizieD didn’t realise that your new role as thread prefect means I or anyone else has to ask you before we post anything?

Just my opinion, GG13. It's allowed...

As is mine MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

As is mine MaizieD

So explain please what 'erasing history' has to do with this thread, which is primarily to do with acknowledging and dealing with our history?

And how displaying one statue in a museum is 'erasing history'.