Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

Galaxy

But surely you understand that a woman who had been raped might feel differently.

Of course but then what accommodation should I make for people who have suffered in other ways? Should I for example refuse to allow candles or open fires in a place because they might frighten someone who had been badly burned? If someone has been assaulted by a women partner what accommodation do I make for her?

Rape is a terrible and awful crime but it is not the only terrible thing that happens to women or indeed to people

Galaxy refuges are protected by risk assessment there is an excellent post earlier in this thread which explains how it works. One of the horrors of this gender critical movement is that it has led women to think they are not safe in refuges when there is little evidence to support this. How many women have remained in violent relationships because of this we may never know
A transgender prison wing has been opened.

How many posters on here have acknowledged that not all TW mean harm?
Lots of them.
Perhaps if those supporting ALL tw made it clear they did NOT support those ill-intentioned TW *(easy) *and instead supported arrangements to protect females from the ill-intentioned tw, there would be some progress.
But some people just can’t bring themselves to do that. To prove they’re intersectional, (seems to be a word for those who don’t quite make it as feminists?), they can’t do anything that might rebut the behaviour of some tw because that would mean they aren’t caring for everyone.
By refusing to admit that because of even a small percentage of ill-intentioned tw, natal women need safe spaces, they are not caring for all groups.
By refusing to support the provision of safe spaces or the retention of existing safe spaces, they are facilitating the actions of those ill-intentioned tw and so failing in the intersectional caring for all aim.
Oh dear. Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Doodledog

*WWM2*, I know a few 'gender-neutral/non-binary' people. They are all young, and (in my entirely inexpert opinion) mostly Autistic. They (boys and girls) wear jeans, t shirts and waistcoats and have Eton crops or undercuts with slightly spiky tops. Mostly they are very introverted - to the point of social anxiety - and more often than not have same-sex partners.

Time will tell whether they will come out as gay down the line.

I disagree with this, autistic people can be socially anxious but they aren't the same thing and it is only one of many many signs.

My daughter is autistic, I work in SEND and I myself am very likely autistic as is one of my sons and my father.

Autism is an umbrella and autistic people can differ greatly and its not as easy to spot as you might think.

From my earlier post Mollygo
The fact that there are now some individuals who choose to use this idea for nefarious purposes shouldn't stop us accepting and accommodating transpeople any more than a male paedophile stops us accepting men or an abusive mother stops us accepting women.
Implying that abusive men are anything to do with transpeople is a bit like saying someone is assumed guilty unless they can prove their innocence.
Women should be safe everywhere. They should not need the provision of safe spaces because the step which comes after that is restricting them to those spaces to keep them safe.

I think you would have to be present in forums where trans people are to know what they are and are not actively condemning in places they feel safe to speak.

There is a danger to trans people taking to public platforms and outing themselves as trans when recent discussions has already caused crimes against trans people to quadruple in 5 years.

Perhaps though you are seeing men and women condemning violence and just haven't known their trans status.

Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant by trans please as some of your posts don’t make sense by using my idea of the term.

VioletSky

Doodledog

WWM2, I know a few 'gender-neutral/non-binary' people. They are all young, and (in my entirely inexpert opinion) mostly Autistic. They (boys and girls) wear jeans, t shirts and waistcoats and have Eton crops or undercuts with slightly spiky tops. Mostly they are very introverted - to the point of social anxiety - and more often than not have same-sex partners.

Time will tell whether they will come out as gay down the line.

I disagree with this, autistic people can be socially anxious but they aren't the same thing and it is only one of many many signs.

My daughter is autistic, I work in SEND and I myself am very likely autistic as is one of my sons and my father.

Autism is an umbrella and autistic people can differ greatly and its not as easy to spot as you might think.

My friend's daughter is on the spectrum VioletSky. She's nothing like this. Her best friend (also on the spectrum) is totally different to her in every aspect of her behaviour. There must a word for loading all people with a cerain disability into the same category.

Whitewavemark2

Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant by trans please as some of your posts don’t make sense by using my idea of the term.

Well realistically it originates in Latin like a lot of words...

Simplistically

Trans means "that side"

Which is why some use the word cis

Cis means "this side"

So someone who transitioned from male to female is trans

Then we have transition which now encompasses living as a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth to full surgery and everything in between

Thanks trisher

VioletSky

Whitewavemark2

Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant by trans please as some of your posts don’t make sense by using my idea of the term.

Well realistically it originates in Latin like a lot of words...

Simplistically

Trans means "that side"

Which is why some use the word cis

Cis means "this side"

So someone who transitioned from male to female is trans

Then we have transition which now encompasses living as a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth to full surgery and everything in between

Right, so someone who has transitioned from one sex to the opposite sex by surgery and medication are known as trans.

I suppose it’s ok but seems a bit puerile to use such a term. To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans?

I don't know the answer to your last question but I do think the trans part matters....

Because trans women (as one example) may face issues that women don't and need targeted support and vice versa.

I can think of lots of examples of this that I can give if you need them.

So I think it's important to have that distinction because although I accept trans women are women I want them to receive the support they need and I want women to receive the support they need too

My friend's daughter is on the spectrum VioletSky. She's nothing like this. Her best friend (also on the spectrum) is totally different to her in every aspect of her behaviour. There must a word for loading all people with a cerain disability into the same category.

Probably. But I wasn't loading all Autistic people (they don't use 'on the spectrum' these days, incidentally) into the same category, was I? I was commenting on the non-binary people I know, in response to a question from WWM2, who asked what they were like.

There is probably a term for those who pick up on every bloody thing people on the other side of an argument post, however. Or will 'deliberately attempting to silence them' cover it?

To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex. I think this is a lovely point. Kind.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans? What about if they are stuck in the long and very difficult process of trying to get treatment & eventually, surgery?

Actually trisher womens aid have just confirmed their commitment to single sex spaces.

To be fair doodledog a lot of people still use spectrum, umbrella is a fairly recent term that many are not aware of yet

Autism really doesn't need to be brought into this... Socially anxious would have done

It's not the first time I've seen autism mentioned on the trans threads but I can't quite remember what was said before

All the autistic people I know have about the same sort of percentages as neurotyoical people when it comes to sexuality or gender if that means anything.

I'm aware saying my friend/circle/experience doesn't really carry any weight

The latest report particularly with regards to young people is stating that there is not enough evidence on pretty much all intervention, we should not be telling people they will be able to access single sex services if they have surgery.

I think the research shows a correlation between autism and gender non conformity. Very complex to unpick. One of the reasons we need to proceed with caution with regards to young people.

Trisher says “Women should be safe everywhere.”
Yes they should, but they aren’t, mostly because of the actions of males however they present, though potentially the actions of females.

“They should not need the provision of safe spaces”
No they shouldn’t, but where else would they go to escape abusive relationships or attacks by ANY males, including TW or any females including TM?
Trisher continues
“because the step which comes after that is restricting them to those spaces to keep them safe.”
That’s rubbish.
Refuges are to keep women safe from further harm, whilst the people who have abused them are dealt with, not prisons to keep them in.

Female only toilets are spaces safer from the potential of attack by even one predatory male. The potential number of attackers has no bearing on the need.

Are you suggesting that the females would be restricted to using the female toilets? Why would that be a problem? Have there been large numbers of females desperate to use male toilets that I haven’t heard about.

By refusing to support the need for safe spaces for women on the grounds that they shouldn’t need them, you are facilitating the access for abusive males or ill-intentioned TW to cause harm.
Even one woman abused because of that is one too many, or are you implying you feel it needs to be a bigger number of abused women before you are convinced?

GagaJo

*To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex.* I think this is a lovely point. Kind.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans? What about if they are stuck in the long and very difficult process of trying to get treatment & eventually, surgery?

That is different. I believe that those seeking surgery and medication are encouraged by their psychiatrist to live as far as possible as their chosen sex before any intervention is carried out. They have almost certainly been doing so in any case.
But they are until medical intervention still the sex in which they were born and certainly so until hormone therapy.
No-one can deny that this transitioning to another sex is not easy, but one must assume the goal is worth it.

Those simply acting out a gender role like for example Grayson Perry are still in his case male and remain legally so, throughout their role reversal. They retain their testosterone as undoubtedly Perry’s wife would be able to testify. Mind you I always think that Perry just likes womens clothing - he always seems to act as a man.

Grayson Perry as far as I am aware enjoys wearing clothes traditionally associated with females. He isnt saying he identifies as a woman is he?

No, I think he's just a bloke who sometimes likes wearing a dress.

Regardless of the level of medical intervention it is not biologically possible to change sex. A man can have surgical removal of his genitalia, receive hormone treatment, have breast implants etc and become a trans woman but cannot become a woman.

Yes I thought he had been clear about that but I might have missed something.

OK

Thanks everyone for bearing with me and patiently answering my questions. I have learned a lot today.

Last one, but perhaps one for later,

So what is the massive argument about?

In my simple way I cannot see a problem for me with anyone choosing to transition to another sex. I can see potentially massive problems for the individual concerned. But I think this is largely down to neither the scientists nor society having a handle on the whole issue.

I do however have a problem with a man who may demand to infringe my rights as a woman, because he wishes to act out his gender role as far as he can. He can’t in my book have it both ways, so my reaction is ‘sod off’. I think that just like everyone else and a lesson he should have learned as a young child that there are boundaries that must not be crossed. We might not like them, but hard cheese. I do not intend to infringe his rights to dress as he wishes and to go about unhindered, but I will not have my right as a woman to expect privacy and safety from unknown males violated.

Smileless2012

Regardless of the level of medical intervention it is not biologically possible to change sex. A man can have surgical removal of his genitalia, receive hormone treatment, have breast implants etc and become a trans woman but cannot become a woman.

Do you mean biological female? Yes I agree with that, but my argument is based on changed behaviour, as I think that innate sexual behaviour is changed by hormones. So if I’m right someone who has received surgical intervention and continual hormone treatment would not present a danger to a woman, unless of course there are other issues at stake here.