Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

Doodledog

*My friend's daughter is on the spectrum VioletSky. She's nothing like this. Her best friend (also on the spectrum) is totally different to her in every aspect of her behaviour. There must a word for loading all people with a cerain disability into the same category.*

Probably. But I wasn't loading all Autistic people (they don't use 'on the spectrum' these days, incidentally) into the same category, was I? I was commenting on the non-binary people I know, in response to a question from WWM2, who asked what they were like.

There is probably a term for those who pick up on every bloody thing people on the other side of an argument post, however. Or will 'deliberately attempting to silence them' cover it?

My friend still uses "on the spectrum" as does her daughter. I'll tell them they are out of date.

For me the argument is about preserving single sex spaces, (and I dont think you can change sex) the absolute mess that appears to be support for children with gender dysphoria, the reinforcing of gender roles, (so I think the whole dress like a woman etc is incredibly regressive) and so on.

Gagajo I have to admit I haven’t read all the previous posts just yours.

Firstly I don’t know what an Intersectional feminist is.

I am happy for anyone to present how they want to the world. My late cousin was trans and my friend’s son is transitioning so I am fairly conversant with how things are now.

What I do object to is having my views rubbished. I understand if folks don’t agree with me but I have the right IMO to state them.

I think that there are men, women, transmen, transwomen, lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals and I can’t think of the name of those who are not sexual at all. What I don’t agree with is that a man who has transitioned is anything but that, he is not a woman, and the same with transmen.

Also the male now transitioned swimmer who recently won a competition against women, was unfair as he/she was physically stronger and larger than them, they didn’t stand a chance, but if anyone dares to say it was an unfair competition they are shouted down.

I find the way of the world very depressing now that free speech is being suppressed.

Finally I was appalled that two female MPs weren’t prepared to state what a ‘woman’ was.

Galaxy

I think the research shows a correlation between autism and gender non conformity. Very complex to unpick. One of the reasons we need to proceed with caution with regards to young people.

I have issues with this because autism has gone undiagnosed for many for a long time and many like myself don't seek diagnosis. I don't need it.

It could be that other reasons to seek help then means a diagnosis of autism too.

I think much more data is needed over a longer timescale.

Whitewave thanks for adding your thoughts, they have been interesting

The mind boggles just thinking about a game of mixed doubles in tennis going forward.

Yes I agree VS, and data and accurate collection of data seems to have been lacking. I have spent 30 +years working with children with autism and have watched services getting it wrong in many ways many times.

Good post NanKate. Intersectional feminism is recognising that different forms of discrimination overlap for example sexism, racism, classism.

TBH I don't know why some identify as intersectional feminists', or why the word intersectional is even needed.

Because women of colour, women of non-western nationalities, of non-standard gender representation, felt that second wave feminism only supported white-western women, who already made up quite a privileged group.

Intersectional feminism supports all women. It recognises other forms of discrimination in addition to sexism. Trans phobia for example.

Doodledog

I'm not convinced that maternal instinct is a gender construct. It's hard to be sure, but I'm willing to believe that it is at least partly biological. It's not guaranteed to be there in all women, and many men are also nurturing types, but on the whole I think it's more about sex than gender.

As it is very strong in most animals, who are not driven by gender stereotypes, I would say that it is primarily an innate response to motherhood, fuelled by the hormones which flood the female body at that time. Many women say that they were not particularly interested in babies until they had their own, when they were overwhelmed by the emotions that were triggered.

Feminism supports all women and recognises all other forms of discrimination which of course includes trans phobia. That said, saying that a man cannot be a woman and a woman cannot be a man is not trans phobia.

Again, only part of my post which mentioned Autism has been picked up on.

I didn't suggest that Autistic people are more likely to be non-binary, but that many of the the young non-binary people I know are (apparently to my untrained eye) Autistic. I mentioned this in reply to a direct question asking about NB people, made it clear that I was speaking only from my own experience, but still, one tiny part of the post is laboured, when it isn't particularly relevant to the discussion - it was a side issue.

This happens to a lot of things posted by those who challenge the 'trans rights supporters'. In fact, I've just drawn attention to it on one of the other numerous 'trans threads' that are live tonight. It is wearing, and I assume is designed to silence us by making the effort of posting as onerous as possible.

More and more women are choosing not to have children which is valid. My own mother once admitted she was not maternal. That's the closest she ever came to admitting she wasn't a good mother. When I rather bravely stood up to her and said so, she suddenly thought she was the best mother in the world lol

Yes it is wearing Doodledog but we are not being silenced.

Smileless2012

Feminism supports all women and recognises all other forms of discrimination which of course includes trans phobia. That said, saying that a man cannot be a woman and a woman cannot be a man is not trans phobia.

But it didn't. Women who were not white western women moved away from feminism because it didn't support them. Womanism, an African American movement, started because 2nd wave feminism didn't recognise the dual discrimination they faced.

Now, you may disagree. But unless you were a woman of a marginalised group, you won't have had that experience.

Elegran

Doodledog

I'm not convinced that maternal instinct is a gender construct. It's hard to be sure, but I'm willing to believe that it is at least partly biological. It's not guaranteed to be there in all women, and many men are also nurturing types, but on the whole I think it's more about sex than gender.

As it is very strong in most animals, who are not driven by gender stereotypes, I would say that it is primarily an innate response to motherhood, fuelled by the hormones which flood the female body at that time. Many women say that they were not particularly interested in babies until they had their own, when they were overwhelmed by the emotions that were triggered.

Although this may be a valid reason for a woman's response directly after birth it cannot possibly be the reason for the continued emphasis on maternal care for children as they grow older. This is the gender construct. That men should be the provider and woman the carer. It's interesting that many high achieving girls who do better than boys in school don't go on to fulfil what would appear to be their potential to achieve, settling instead for lower levels of work, or part time work. Medicine is a prime example. The numbers of women medical students has hugely increased, but most of them will not progress to the highest grades and many will become GPs and work part time to fit in with child care. Now this is absolutely a valid choice but it is to do with gender roles.The question of who drives gender roles and if it is women who choose not to surrender child care to men, or men who feel child care isn't a man's role is debatable. These roles have shifted massively in the last 50 years but they remain heavily weighted towards the concept that caring is a woman's activity.

Well until men, by which I mean biological men, can gestate and deliver a human baby then procreation will heavily depend on women. Nature being what nature is will 'program' women to have these nurturing reactions. That's not to say men can't be nurturing but men can't breastfeed (well not without questionable drug regimes) but they can give skin to skin contact that's so important in newborns. In my unit we would encourage fathers of premature babies where the mother was poorly to have skin to skin contact with their babies.
In gay marriages where there are babies (usually born to a surrogate mother in the case of two men which is a whole other thread) one partner will assume the major portion of childcare exactly the same as in most heterosexual marriages. I don't believe an exact 50/50 split is achievable for the vast majority in terms of employment or wages. And before anyone accuses me of homophobia one of my closest friends is in just such a marriage and she accepted the major childcare role as her wife has much greater earning capacity.

Something I was talking about with friends recently actually

We have all faced discrimination based on sex and that will obviously mostly come from men...

Yet judgement we all agreed has been so much worse. Judgement about whether we work or stay at home with children, breastfeed or bottle feed, have children young or later in life, keep a pristine house or live a little messy, whether we like to wear make up and get our nails done or prefer to go without those things, how we dress, whether we have sctice social lives..... Hang on, I need to stop listing but it's literally everything....

Every judgement on who we are as women and how we express it comes primarily from other women, we agreed. For some of us it started with our own mothers.

Is it really that hard to admit it happens on these threads when we don't really know each other well enough to judge, yet... Some think another's belief on one subject somehow defines them as a whole and means they know how they think and feel and its right to subject them to unfair judgement.

The Cass report confirms that a comprehensive assessment of the children referred to the GIDs clinic was omitted with the emphasis on accepting the child’s belief s/he was born in the wrong body.
Despite poor record keeping, it appears neuro diverse children are over represented in the clinic.
Like other posters, I know young people in this group. They share life experience of never quite fitting in, feeling excluded, many have found an active friendship group in the trans community on line.
No one is denying trans people have always been with us. What we don’t have enough research on is what is fuelling what seems to be an increase in children seeking help. Neuro diversity, the impact of the pandemic and mire

Now, you may disagree. But unless you were a woman of a marginalised group, you won't have had that experience.
By that token, only those who are M/F trans could comment on the experience of transwomen. Only victims of rape could know it is wrong. Laws could only be made by those who had suffered from their lack. Humans can empathise - I am not, and can never be a black American, woman, but my experience of other (albeit different) forms of discrimination allows me an insight into how they might feel. If we could only act for others with the same experiences as ourselves it would be an even more fragmented world.

None of us as women will experience everything that women can and do experience. I am a feminist. I support all women and recognise all forms of discrimination and have no need to identify as an intersectional feminist.

Smileless2012

None of us as women will experience everything that women can and do experience. I am a feminist. I support all women and recognise all forms of discrimination and have no need to identify as an intersectional feminist.

Indeed!

To me, the intersectionalism goes without saying.

Me too Doodledog.

Me too Doodledog!

The "intersectional goes without saying" concept was what many women brought to the table when intersectionalism was first discussed. It was of course mainly a white middle class opinion and many were surprised to find that others disagreed with them. That because of who they were women had different experiences, and those shaped their lives and opinions, and those opinions were not always intersectional, even though the woman believed they were. They often hid preconceived ideas and opinions which surfaced not in the things the women said, but in the things they did.