Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

Thank you to the link to JKR’s statement Doodledog It was good to read it in her own words.

If anyone raises questions they are accused of being transphobic.

This is the crux of the disagreements on here (and elsewhere), I think. It is simply not possible to question or to have a different opinion without being accused of holding all manner of abhorrent opinions.

I don't feel remotely antagonistic (never mind 'phobic') about those who choose to live according to gender norms that differ from the ones usually associated with their sex.

I don't, however, believe that it is possible to change sex, and as a result of that disbelief (non-belief?) I do not support the right of M/F transpeople to compete against women in sport, or to make vulnerable women feel more so, or to make women feel uncomfortable by displaying male bodies in female-only areas.

I believe strongly in preserving the language so that women can, when necessary, be discussed in words that recognise that we are adult human females, and that transwomen are different, in the same way that they want to be recognised as different from men.

How do those things make me 'unkind'? Or discriminatory? Or right wing? Or homophobic? Or Nazi? I would really like answers to that, as have been called all of those things (and more) on here - ironically by the very people who are, according to the title of this thread, the victims of 'orchestrated silencing'.

Yes thanks for the link Doodledog. I have read it before, but not for some time, it was good to refresh my memory. I'd echo Lucca I'd hope everybody would read it, but I doubt they will.

I've read it and I find it highly inconsistent. She states at one point that her area of concern is transmen, or girls who choose to transition. Then she introduces her own experience of sexual assault and goes on to lambast transwomen. Well sorry the three things are in my opinion not linked and it is the linking which is transphobic. She was assaulted presumably by a man. And awful though it may be it is only in an attempt to create a sense of distrust that she brings it into the discussion, because no transwoman was involved. As for the transmen she professes to be concerned about well once she's onto transwomen they are forgotten about.

trisher

I've read it and I find it highly inconsistent. She states at one point that her area of concern is transmen, or girls who choose to transition. Then she introduces her own experience of sexual assault and goes on to lambast transwomen. Well sorry the three things are in my opinion not linked and it is the linking which is transphobic. She was assaulted presumably by a man. And awful though it may be it is only in an attempt to create a sense of distrust that she brings it into the discussion, because no transwoman was involved. As for the transmen she professes to be concerned about well once she's onto transwomen they are forgotten about.

Anyone surprised by this?

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

I’ve been reading this thread with interest and I’m learning a lot. Please be patient with me as I am not yet au fait with all the correct language related to this subject. With still so much to learn there is one question that I would like to ask, the answer to which may – or may not - help me to understand this complex subject. Please can someone let me know how many people in the UK fit the definition of transgender.

trisher

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

No, she says that because of her fear of assault by men she wants to be sure that they have not got access to places where she assumes she is safe because they are supposedly single-sex.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

Doodledog

trisher

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

No, she says that because of her fear of assault by men she wants to be sure that they have not got access to places where she assumes she is safe because they are supposedly single-sex.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

This illustrates how the rumours grow and become 'fact', get repeated and amplified, and suddenly she's the devil incarnate.

This illustrates how the rumours grow and become 'fact', get repeated and amplified, and suddenly she's the devil incarnate.

Yes - this is why JKR has been threatened with death, why the young actors whose fortune she made by writing their parts in the HP films have vilified her, and why countless 'trans allies' claim she is a transphobe, whether or not they have actually read what she said. Does anyone really think that what she said was so terrible?

It perfectly illustrates how things on here get twisted, too.

Rosie51

Doodledog

trisher

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

No, she says that because of her fear of assault by men she wants to be sure that they have not got access to places where she assumes she is safe because they are supposedly single-sex.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

This illustrates how the rumours grow and become 'fact', get repeated and amplified, and suddenly she's the devil incarnate.

No what it shows is that she chose to speak out about an assault she suffered when discussing transmatters. The reasons for her doing that are debatable. I would argue that as an experienced writer she was fully aware that bringng such a thing into the discussion was purely emotive.
And as I said her first alleged problem was girls transitioning unnecessarily and there is perhaps an interesting debate to be entered into there.
Instead she chose to use an assault and introduce transwomen. She wasn't attacked by a transwoman
And if she had stuck to transmen the subject of safe spaces becomes much more complicated

And reading something a different way isn't "twisting " anything it simply explains a different conclusion that could be drawn from the piece and explains the TERF accusations.

She wasn't writing to your agenda, though. She was explaining why she wrote what she wrote.

Of course there are always going to be those who are determined to tell her what she thinks, and why she thinks it. If the 'TERF' accusations are 'explained' by the fact that someone who was assaulted by a man wants to know for sure when she is in the company of a male-bodied person, then it says a lot about those making them. For one thing they are not allowing JKR to own her fears, and for another the threats are hugely disproportionate to the 'offence', however misguided their reading of it may be (JKR has repeatedly explained that her comments were not in any way transphobic, and she should know).

This sums up the process really well.

Bloody Groundhog Day…

The only people than can commit rape (in legal terms) are those with a penis.

They can rape/assault anyone - biological men, biological women and anyone from either biological group. identifying as a different gender.

Most "penis people" are perfectly ok - some aren't.

Surely, that is what JKR was saying?

Just leave biological women some spaces where they know they are highly unlikely to be pestered or abused by someone with a penis...?

Doodledog

This sums up the process really well.

????? no actually
????? that that’s what’s going on.

Nothing justifies death threats against JKR. Please stop acting like there is anyone here with that belief.

Nothing justifies death threats against JKR or trans people.

I've denounced both.

I've however noticed not only a lack of denouncenent of violence against trans women but also a lack of denouncenent of violence towards women people simply believed were trans when they weren't.

I've been asked to prove that happens and I have.

This really bothers me

girls transitioning unnecessarily and there is perhaps an interesting debate to be entered into there

Intellectualising the desperate situation where growing numbers of girls are transitioning unnecessarily is IMO offensive. I entirely understand the need for calm, well informed debate about this. The reality is the increase in the number of girls who feel unhappy/body dismorphic, is worrying.
Especially given the conclusions of the Cass report.
I haven’t seen any comments criticising the Cass report. In fact other than the gender critical group, I haven’t seen any reference to it

Iam64

*girls transitioning unnecessarily and there is perhaps an interesting debate to be entered into there*

Intellectualising the desperate situation where growing numbers of girls are transitioning unnecessarily is IMO offensive. I entirely understand the need for calm, well informed debate about this. The reality is the increase in the number of girls who feel unhappy/body dismorphic, is worrying.
Especially given the conclusions of the Cass report.
I haven’t seen any comments criticising the Cass report. In fact other than the gender critical group, I haven’t seen any reference to it

Iam64 I'm not sure what you mean by intellectualising all I was doing was drawing attention to the fact that JKR chose to raise the subject as a concern and dismiss it in a couple of sentences, then forget about it entirely and focus on transwomen. It seems to me if you are really concerned you would want to discuss more. Apparently though women only spaces is more important, of course where transmen go in the spaces is a bit complicated.

all I was doing was drawing attention to JKR
Who would undoubtedly feel she doesn’t need it.

What do you mean trisher, jkr talks about transmen quite a lot, particularly about detransition and what that means for the women that go through it.

Galaxy

What do you mean trisher, jkr talks about transmen quite a lot, particularly about detransition and what that means for the women that go through it.

Maybe she does I don't follow her. But she certainly didn't in the piece the link was given for.

If I am not mistaken Animosity & Personal insults are posted from time to time on just about every topic.