Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

The first two posts in this thread contain statements which the posters think are being denied by all other posters on GN.

a) "Trans people are included, they have rights, they matter and they are equal in my eyes as an intersectional feminist." They are human beings, of course they matter. I haven't seen anyone who would deny Trans Women basic rights or "equality" - but exactly what rights, and equality to whom?

Women have equality with men - supposedly - but in separated competitive sports men rely on the relative size, innate muscle development and killer instincts that come naturally to most of them through the testosterone rush of puberty. (Castrati singers, deprived of their testosterone production before puberty in the most brutal way, used to develop the most beautiful high voices through the absence of that testosterone rush - that is one evidence of how powerful it is.)

Some men are a danger to women and will look for a way to get access to them. Some women are at risk from some men and as a result of this, seek refuge where no males are admitted. Those transwomen with all their bits and hormones who face the same dangers as women are still males in the context of the traumatised women in refuges . They need refuges too, but not cheek by jowel with those who are fleeing male violence.

And, of course, equality does not mean being identical or wearing exactly the same label. Men and women are equal, male and female are equal, but a man is not a woman and a male is not a female. Words matter.

Where is the equality in allowing complete males to compete againt females on the premise that they believe that they are really female? If a racehorse could state that it is really a human because that is what it believes it is, could Red Rum have been entered for (and won) the men's Olympic running races?

b) Then there is "the orchestrated attacks from gender criticial feminists" Sorry, Gagajo but I am not a "gender critical femiinist" and no-one is orchestrating me. If they tried to do so, I would resist as energetically as I resist the more aggressive transactivists who want to label me a trans hater. Individual people have individual opinions.

I assume we agree that gender is a societal construct?

Given that gender is a societal construct, then we agree that sex is a biological construct?

The two are very different I think.

White wave, never assume.

Good post Veganrock
Life is very simple for me
I don’t care what anyone wears, clothes, make up, nail varnish high heels
I don’t care who anyone has sex with
I don’t care what anyone calls themselves
But
I do not want a man competing against women in sport
I do not want a man in my toilet or my changing room or a womens refuge etc
And
A man is someone who dresses and talks and has sex however he wishes, but has male genitalia
Life in Bluebelles world is very simple

So using the terms woman to describe gender and female to describe biological fact seems helpful.

So a child is born with its biological sex (I know there are anomalies), but it’s behaviour and life outcomes are determined by its gender.

I’m not being faux naïve here, honestly.

Why do we have to keep on discussing / arguing about this among ourselves?

We all (or most of us) know our our own minds and beliefs and we aren’t going to change them.
Some of us believe that TWAW; others don’t.

I’d still like to know about intersectional feminism though.

Iam64

White wave, never assume.

I know, I thought once I posted it - bugger?. But bear with - as Miranda’s friend says.

FannyC, it’s a hot current topic, I guess that’s why the discussion/argument continues.

I know Iam64, I know that my post sounded a bit daft.
Another bear with me from me!

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

Off now to move my ass and get something done. I’ll think about it as I go.

WW that’s why it has to be GCF for me all day long.
No one should feel or be made to feel that they were ‘born in the wrong body’.

I agree Fanny. The same arguments by the same people over and over again. It gets very tedious. Been there, done that, remember the insults hurled by the TWAW lobby. If they were all on this thread (there aren’t many of them) there would have been a lot of nastiness and deletions by now.

Right - remind me GCF, TWAW.

I am very new to these issues as you can tell.

So addressing my first question.

A baby is born biologically male.

From day 1 his life experience will be entirely different to that of a female baby.

Society will assign him with a gender and societies attitude towards the boy and expectations of his behaviour will be instilled from day 1.

The males’ sex is as intrinsic to that child as his brain, heart, arms or legs. That can never be changed.

What really isn't helpful in any discussion on this subject is the repetitive complaints and accusations that, those with views that don't align with your own, are therefore "abusive". This has become the rallying cry of the vocal trans activists who have created the situation in which any woman, who dares to question whether we can change sex is called a terf, is subject to horrendous threats and, if she has a public profile, she's "cancelled". Perfectly decent, reasonable, well educated women, who want to gather to talk about their own life experiences, now need a police prescence to protect them from the physical and verbal abuse by those same people who are demanding that their voices be heard. It seems ironic that some are demanding that a very tiny section of society be given a bigger platform and a louder voice but they appear to be oblivious to the slow, but inexorable, quietening of the voices of 50% of the population. And that's visible right here, on GN. Thank God for the brave and vocal young women on Mumsnet!

Whitewavemark2

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

With respect, you can't ask that question before knowing what it is that being 'male' or 'female' means. How can someone know they are in 'the wrong body', unless they know what it feels like to be in the other kind? How do you and I know that we both feel the same about being women? Or that we would feel differently if we were men?

IMO, we don't. We know what sex we are because of gametes, which cannot be changed, regardless of our sex organs. People only ever have one kid of gametes or the other, and they are impossible to transplant or alter. Whether we are comfortable dressing in jeans and docs or floral dresses and kitten heels is about style, not sex, and many of us (me included) do both, without changing 'gender' as we do it. Similarly we can both nurture and provide for our children whether we are mothers or fathers.

It seems to me to be a regressive step to say that there are some behaviours that show we are male and others female, which is why I criticise the gendered way of looking at society. I believe that we should have choice, and that we don't need to change sex to change behavioural norms.

I also live in “Bluebells “ world.

Gagajo it's because there aren't any "trans activists" here to have a go at.

Just people who want to find acceptance for trans people.

Hate crimes against trans people have quadrupled since these discussions began, yet people can't acknowledge that they are putting us or trans people in the same boat as awful men who use the fact that train people's rights are being protected as an opportunity to commit crimes.

Those men would have used any opportunity.

Butch lesbians and women who look a bit masculine have also been attacked due to the belief they are trans.

I keep saying that these issued need to be discussed with kindness towards trans people and their allies because without that, the direct result is emboldening transphobia and discrimination because the evidence is there it is happening.

Everyone should be able to be safe and protected, all of us.

Yet trans people are getting scapegoated for the issues that have arisen purely by their existence which can't be helped.

That doesn't mean anyone here would ever directly cause harm to trans people but they may be indirectly causing harm by making those who feel the same way and are happy to attack trans people feel powerful

I don’t usually join in threads about trans issues, there are other platforms than Gransnet which I personally find more appropriate.

However I do generally read them and I haven’t noticed any orchestrated silencing.

Are any transwomen or transmen members of Gransnet?

Budge up and make room MacCavity2, it looks like it could get a bit crowded in BlueBelle's world

One of the first upsetting replies to any issue is often along the lines of

"I'm sure trans allies will be along to explain the indefensible"

This immediately sets the tone that any trans ally is somehow responsible for the behaviour of extremists and violent awful people.

None of us have ever defended that and average every day trans people just aren't responsible for that.

That's why we have to speak out to protect. That's why we can't stay quiet even if it means personal attacks.

Orchestrated silencing = the majority don't agree with me and I don't like it.

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

I completely agree with BlueBelle. And it's good to have it put in simple language.