Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

VioletSky you call yourself an intersectional feminist; can you answer my question please?

WW GCF - Gender Critical Feminism (I believe in this)

TWAW - Trans women are Women (I don’t believe this)

Doodledog

Whitewavemark2

The first big question I have when addressing the issue of someone deciding that they want to change is, is it a societal issue or a biological issue that makes them feel as they do?

I know it seems a bit like splitting hairs but it does matter.

With respect, you can't ask that question before knowing what it is that being 'male' or 'female' means. How can someone know they are in 'the wrong body', unless they know what it feels like to be in the other kind? How do you and I know that we both feel the same about being women? Or that we would feel differently if we were men?

IMO, we don't. We know what sex we are because of gametes, which cannot be changed, regardless of our sex organs. People only ever have one kid of gametes or the other, and they are impossible to transplant or alter. Whether we are comfortable dressing in jeans and docs or floral dresses and kitten heels is about style, not sex, and many of us (me included) do both, without changing 'gender' as we do it. Similarly we can both nurture and provide for our children whether we are mothers or fathers.

It seems to me to be a regressive step to say that there are some behaviours that show we are male and others female, which is why I criticise the gendered way of looking at society. I believe that we should have choice, and that we don't need to change sex to change behavioural norms.

You have misunderstood what I have said.

You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything.

You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender.

But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.

FannyCornforth

VioletSky you call yourself an intersectional feminist; can you answer my question please?

WW GCF - Gender Critical Feminism (I believe in this)

TWAW - Trans women are Women (I don’t believe this)

Thanks. I hope to reach those heady opinions eventually?

Whitewavemark2

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

There are studies being done that do show biological differences. So far 21 in 17 genes (I'm trusting my memory here) and there is evidence that at some stage in development the brain is flushed with different levels of hormones. You can look into the science behind transgender. I'd go find the links but I have done that before and been ignored or told the research is too old at 2 years even though the findings remain unchallenged.

I think eventually we will understand this more and why so many are suffering from gender dysphoria which results in awful mental health without the opportunity to transition.

Chewbacca

Orchestrated silencing = the majority don't agree with me and I don't like it.

Yes, and the references to 'silencing' and 'abuse' that supposedly happen are all very abstract and have not happened on this thread, despite the fact that its very premise is that the TRAs need to be protected from 'animosity and personal insults'.

Have I missed the answer to my question about what the TRA lobby understand by the word 'woman'? It really is fundamental to the debate. The 'gender critical' are happy to define a woman as an adult human female - someone with female gametes (whether or not she has a uterus or ovaries) and say that we believe this to be a fixed state. A man is defined in the same way, but with male gametes.

Clearly, the TRAs disagree, but they are not willing (or able) to say how, why, or in what way they define a woman. This is why we end up saying the same thing over and over, to the annoyance of many on GN. It is also why the debate can't advance in a meaningful fashion.

Far from silencing anyone, I am pleading with them to put their point of view out there - what is a woman?

Chewbacca it isn't the views that don't align that are the problem. It is the insults that filter into the threads. And the rudeness.

A contrary belief or point is what debate and discussion are about. The very bread and butter of it. It is to be welcomed.

It's dishonest to suggest I've never answered that question, I have several times.

You’re so right Bluebelle. Save me a place in your world.

VioletSky

It's dishonest to suggest I've never answered that question, I have several times.

Was that to me?

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.

VioletSky

Whitewavemark2

By the time the child is at school it is entirely established in its gender role.

However, for some reason a tiny minority of individuals are not comfortable with the gender role assigned to them and seek to take on the mantle of the role of another gender.

Meanwhile their biological sex remains unchanged.

So a boy will endeavour to adopt the roll of a girl.

Now my next big question is this - is it the gender that pursues the need to not only change the constructed role but the physical appearance of the biological male body or is it a biological need.

My argument would be that it is a gender issue and not a biological one.

There are studies being done that do show biological differences. So far 21 in 17 genes (I'm trusting my memory here) and there is evidence that at some stage in development the brain is flushed with different levels of hormones. You can look into the science behind transgender. I'd go find the links but I have done that before and been ignored or told the research is too old at 2 years even though the findings remain unchallenged.

I think eventually we will understand this more and why so many are suffering from gender dysphoria which results in awful mental health without the opportunity to transition.

Yes all the time I’m working through my understanding, I have this massive elephant named hormone that will have to be dealt with?.

I’m not a scientist so will have difficulty with that one.

GagaJo

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.

Jo that just sounds like utter bobbins to me

You have misunderstood what I have said. You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything. You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender. But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.*

I get that, yes. That's what I was meaning by 'gender norms' - we learn them as we are socialised, and if they changed so that if we were born into a society where women were warriors we would see war-like behaviour as female. Gender norms are associated with sex, but are not because of it. If they were because of sex they would be the same the world over.

That's why (IMO) we should concentrate on making it easier for people of either sex to follow whichever behavioural norms they like, and not to feel that they have to become the sex that is more usually associated with the ones they prefer, in order to do so.

GagaJo

Chewbacca it isn't the views that don't align that are the problem. It is the insults that filter into the threads. And the rudeness.

A contrary belief or point is what debate and discussion are about. The very bread and butter of it. It is to be welcomed.

Yes I agree with that

Also if you answer a question with your view that's a good enough answer and should be treated as acceptable whether or not the other person agrees.

Also demands to answer questions should stop, no one has all the answers or should be forced to answer the same ones over and over again or a discussion becomes an interigation.

I know some threads do become quite unfriendly and result in personal attacks being deleted on all sorts of issues but, this discussion has been going on on gransnet across several threads for quite some time and there isn't any justification to treat others as less than because you believe they hold a minority view.

Sorry whitewave I think it was you who said that some people wont be comfortable with their gender role. I would say that many people feel that, so I hate many of the gender expectations placed on women and continue rail against them. For me, and I am quite happy to say that I find gender oppressive and not something that we want to embrace so to speak

Jo (again, sorry) was that an answer to my question about Intersectional Feminism?
I

Sorry - the first paragraph was meant to be a quote.

So the young male, who at pre-puberty is uncomfortable in his assigned gender role.

My question is, what is pushing him to try to change his gender.

Is it simply a rejection of his gender or is it something in his biology?

Now I am stuck. As I don’t know. It makes a huge difference in the answer to this as one is a preference and the other is predetermined I think.

This is all for too elliptical for me now.
I’m off to do some more reading.
If anyone has any recommendations I would welcome them.

Anyway it's a beautiful day here and I need to be outside in it.

These discussions matter but not enough to sacrifice time that is important to me to going round and round in circles.

I see trans women as women. I accept them and I am always willing to do whatever is necessary to allow all women go live their authentic lives safely without any one group being discriminated against to do so.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', well she was plainly wrong then. One is a virgin all the while one has not had sexual intercourse. Once one has had sexual intercourse one is no longer a virgin, and can never return to a virgin state. Surgery can repair the broken hymen to resemble an intact one, but it can't alter that one has had sexual intercourse, and therefore one is no longer a virgin.

GagaJo

A woman is a social construct. Most women are identified as female at birth, but some are not.

In the same way QE1 is reputed to have said, 'One has become a virgin', we all 'become' women. Our routes to get there can differ.

So your definition of 'a woman' is 'a social construct'? I'm not sure I follow, so please bear with me.

In that case, when gender constructs change, which they do all the time, will those who claim to have 'transitioned' go back to being men? Or retransition to something different?

Why do they feel the need to enter women's spaces if all they are doing is conforming to constructed norms?

And how is it ok to compete in women's teams/sports when the norm is that those races are run by biological females, not 'constructed' ones?

(the 'becoming a virgin' thing is meaningless to me in this regard. QE1 was talking about a shift in her PR strategy, surely?)

I have a ceiling that you could be painting for me FannyC?

Doodledog

You have misunderstood what I have said. You are born male or female. You don’t feel anything, no more than your heart or arms or lungs make you feel anything. You are assigned your gender at birth by societal construct. That is what makes you feel a particular gender. But imagine society was turned on its head and a biological male was treated exactly as a female from birth. His gender would be female.*

I get that, yes. That's what I was meaning by 'gender norms' - we learn them as we are socialised, and if they changed so that if we were born into a society where women were warriors we would see war-like behaviour as female. Gender norms are associated with sex, but are not because of it. If they were because of sex they would be the same the world over.

That's why (IMO) we should concentrate on making it easier for people of either sex to follow whichever behavioural norms they like, and not to feel that they have to become the sex that is more usually associated with the ones they prefer, in order to do so.

Yes I am actually ahead of you there. That is what I think I think, but I don’t know and need to work towards it, but I’m stuck on a question at the moment, and unless I can find an answer to the roll biology plays (if any) I’ve a feeling that I’m stuck on the fence.

Still, ever onwards as they say!

Oh I see WW. I dont think anybody can answer that question because the research appears to have been fairly lacking to put it politely. The Cass report which concerns provision for children with gender dysphoria is saying there is a clear lack of evidence on what is the best way forward. There has also been an unexplained increase in female to male transition recently and they seem to be struggling to understand this as well.