the law as it stands on sex

Sorry, trisher! I had to type and run for a bus?

Oh dear Doodledog you want evidence of criminal activity? That's actually funny!!! Sorry there isn't any. When people are up in court for shop lifting there isn't usually an inquiry into how they were dressed or the way they hid the goods. I have been offered various items when I was teaching and been told by parents how much the shoplifters charged for their very expensive children's shoes, and told that if I told them my size the shoplifters would get me a certain coat/dress/jumper. I never took it up

trisher as asked before. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset

Not counselling, a physical intimate examination.

You have not addressed this point I made in response to you saying anyone can object to anyone examining them. Do I take it you would agree it's wrong for an undisclosed transwoman to conduct an examination when a female has been requested? And as Doodledog would want it would be illegal.

No, I wasn’t asking for evidence of the activity, but some sort of backup of your claim ( now that wasfunny!) that using fake pregnancy bumps as shoplifting accessories is ‘commonplace’ would have made your diversion from the question of female safety seem less ludicrous.

That's hilarious trisher! I've had kids (teenagers) offer to 'Fill him in' or 'Do 'im over' for me (usually the headteacher) but never offers of shoplifting.

I feel hard done by. ?

Rosie51

^trisher as asked before. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset^

Not counselling, a physical intimate examination.

You have not addressed this point I made in response to you saying anyone can object to anyone examining them. Do I take it you would agree it's wrong for an undisclosed transwoman to conduct an examination when a female has been requested? And as Doodledog would want it would be illegal.

I’m so interested to hear trisher’s answer to this.
Impersonating someone else for fraudulent purposes or to commit other offences like those we are asking about, in we are asking about is covered here.
Fraud is a crime.
Fraud by false representation
The defendant:
made a false representation
dishonestly
knowing that the representation was or might be untrue or misleading
I’m sure some posters would say that the TW saying he was a woman was not false representation, but all the above posts have used the word female, so a TW arriving to conduct a task where a female has been requested would be wrong.
So I’ll wait for trisher.

GagaJo

That's hilarious trisher! I've had kids (teenagers) offer to 'Fill him in' or 'Do 'im over' for me (usually the headteacher) but never offers of shoplifting.

I feel hard done by. ?

It was the mothers who told you. If they liked you (and they didn't like some people) they would tell you what they'd got and ask if there was anything you'd like. The mum with the shoes told me what the price usually was, how much they were in the sale and how much the shoplifters had asked for them. I was told they were quite organised and the baby bump (you could put things in it and it distracted people) was one thing they used. I never bothered to verify any of it. But there were kids whose parents were on benefits in matching expensive coats and other gear. It's a whole other world isn't it?

Goodness, I'd be insulted if people thought I would be open to receiving stolen goods. And as for telling how it's done and thinking I'd approve

Rosie51

Goodness, I'd be insulted if people thought I would be open to receiving stolen goods. And as for telling how it's done and thinking I'd approve

Don't worry I'm sure you wouldn't have been offered anything, but working successfuly with children requires that you empathise with their lifestyle, you don't have to follow it, but it helps if you know what's going on and how things work.
Someone told me once there's working class crime and middle class crime. Working class is stealing stuff, middle class is filling out the insurance claim and adding a few things!

What class crime is fraud by misrepresentation trisher?

Mollygo

What class crime is fraud by misrepresentation trisher?

I'd say it's upper and middle class- usually Tories pretending they really care and they will look after the NHS.

trisher

Rosie51

Goodness, I'd be insulted if people thought I would be open to receiving stolen goods. And as for telling how it's done and thinking I'd approve

Don't worry I'm sure you wouldn't have been offered anything, but working successfuly with children requires that you empathise with their lifestyle, you don't have to follow it, but it helps if you know what's going on and how things work.
Someone told me once there's working class crime and middle class crime. Working class is stealing stuff, middle class is filling out the insurance claim and adding a few things!

Any chance you could comment on the point I've made several times (in response to a reply from you) about female practitioners? You seem to have got to this post extremely quickly.

Haha!! That's hilarious trisher. Two catergories of theft now!

The great unwashed specialising in hands on, overt theft, the sainted middles specialising in the jolly wheeze of ripping off (a.k.a. thieve) from insurance companies from a safe distance "weeell, it's a victimless crime innit?"

As for your incredibly insulting, patronising remark about "working 'successfully' with children requires that you empathise with their lifestyles but you don't have to follow it." - even Nancy Mitford would have stopped short of that howler.

Double standards all the way but it does explain a lot.

Oh, FFS! Fascinating though remembrance of times past are (to those who were involved) this is more of the same - a deflection from the point, which is that someone disguising himself as a woman in order to commit a crime (any crime) is adding a layer of duplicity that should, IMO carry a further sentence, and someone doing the same in order to intimately examine a woman even more so. If they ‘live as’ a woman and explain this to the client/patient she would at least have the agency to decide whether or not to go ahead. The transwoman would, of course, have had the opportunity to choose a career path that didn’t involve crossing those boundaries.

Doodledog

Oh, FFS! Fascinating though remembrance of times past are (to those who were involved) this is more of the same - a deflection from the point, which is that someone disguising himself as a woman in order to commit a crime (any crime) is adding a layer of duplicity that should, IMO carry a further sentence, and someone doing the same in order to intimately examine a woman even more so. If they ‘live as’ a woman and explain this to the client/patient she would at least have the agency to decide whether or not to go ahead. The transwoman would, of course, have had the opportunity to choose a career path that didn’t involve crossing those boundaries.

So if a woan is arrested wearing a man's suit would she be similarly dealt with?

Sorry fast finger woman of course!

Sorry Doodledog, internecine spats are rude and distracting from the seriousness of the main thread. I apologise.

trisher I'll take your reluctance to answer my many posts as even you can't justify the immorality of an undisclosed transwoman doing an intimate examination when a female had been requested. Shame you won't actually post that, do you feel it would somehow compromise your ally status? If it was made illegal I expect most wouldn't chance the deception.

Nannee49

Sorry Doodledog, internecine spats are rude and distracting from the seriousness of the main thread. I apologise.

No need, Nannee. It’s not that at all - the more you read threads on these issues, the more you’ll realise that anything and everything is brought in in order to distract from the fact that ‘some people’ don’t have answers to the questions they are asked.

I always worry about people who want to introduce legislation to discriminate against others on any feature of someone's life. If you don't like the look of someone say "No" to them examining you. But once you bring in legislation where does it stop? Is the next step to stop homosexuals examining people of the same sex because some people are homophobic? I know you'll all insist that would never happen but societies that start with one lot of discrimination tend to move onto others.

trisher

Mollygo asked
What class crime is fraud by misrepresentation trisher?
Trisher’s a response, and do note the number of deviations she tries to bring in to her answer!
I'd say it's upper and middle class- usually Tories pretending they really care and they will look after the NHS.

So according to you, trisher, the TW who are guilty of fraudulent misrepresentation when in a female safe space, or in a medical situation where a patient has asked for a female are all upper and middle-class males.
Can you produce evidence of that or is it another like the TW shoplifter event, where you’re have to empathise with tw?

You still haven’t answered the question posed by Doodledog, Rosie51 and forwarded and added to by me.
I’ve posted it again to save you trawling through past posts.

Rosie51

trisher as asked before. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset

Not counselling, a physical intimate examination

I’d like to know this too.
Do you think it’s legal for someone involved in my medical welfare to be allowed to lie before they gain access to my body to carry out even the simplest procedure?
If you think yes, (and I’m not telling you what to think) then that means you would also condone the man knocking on my door and lying that he’s from the gas board, when in fact he wants to gain access to my house.
Obtaining something by fraud (pretending to be female when a female has been requested) must surely be wrong, even to you trisher!

Nannee49

Haha!! That's hilarious trisher. Two catergories of theft now!

The great unwashed specialising in hands on, overt theft, the sainted middles specialising in the jolly wheeze of ripping off (a.k.a. thieve) from insurance companies from a safe distance "weeell, it's a victimless crime innit?"

As for your incredibly insulting, patronising remark about "working 'successfully' with children requires that you empathise with their lifestyles but you don't have to follow it." - even Nancy Mitford would have stopped short of that howler.

Double standards all the way but it does explain a lot.

Consider it what you like Nanee49 the comment wasn't mine it was just a quote. Personally I didn't see it in the terms you use. I just saw it as an example of how everyone at any level has their fingers in the till.
I don't know if you'd noticed but I'd just been castigated for knowing about shoplifting and "approving" now apparently I'm wrong for "empathising". Actually when you are doing the job you don't think much about any of those things. You take on board the things you are told about chaotic lifestyles, deal with the fall out, try to ensure school is a place of safety, and support a child's needs at the same time as you try to educate them.
The stories of shop lifting, drug dealing and other crimes are just part of that and sometimes they provide a little light relief. No doubt it's very reprehensible to find anything funny in them or to realise they are part of some children's lives.

So the bottom line is that you wouldn’t support a law that put the rights of women (in this case to have agency over their own bodies) ahead of the rights of transwomen to keep their trans status private?

No surprise there then, but that says it all.

Someone told me once there's working class crime and middle class crime. Working class is stealing stuff, middle class is filling out the insurance claim and adding a few things!

Well they made a daft comment then! Honestly why is class coming into a conversation about sex/gender/trans! Presumably anyone of any class might be a trans man or a trans woman!

Doodledog

So the bottom line is that you wouldn’t support a law that put the rights of women (in this case to have agency over their own bodies) ahead of the rights of transwomen to keep their trans status private?

No surprise there then, but that says it all.

No I wouldn't support a law that forced anyone to disclose their tran status anymore than I would support a law that forced anyone to disclose their sexual orientation. If a woman insists she will not be examined by a transwomen what's to stop anyone saying they won't be examined by a homosexual, or a black person? You have the right to refuse if you don't want to be examined by someone. Enquiring into that persons's private life isn't necessesary or desirable.