the law as it stands on sex

I see the "blame trisher"mode is active again Mollygo check who first accused Charlie of going to the media and the media involved. It wasn't me and it wasn't Twitter.
Sorry I realise you don't do anything but the basic concepts. Two sorts of media who would have thought it????

DiamondLily
I don't like religious dogma, any more than anything else. Any crowd if youths can be intimidating, I agree. Regardless of culture.
These were not "youths" these were families on a day out for some celebration. Women and children firmly relegated to the play area and men gathered on the green area, males from about 11 or 12, up to men in their 60s.
The men had colonised a section of a public park and you don't regard that as worrying?

He is a male.

Who introduced your granddaughter trisher?
She wasn’t there on this particular occasion. So answering my question by digging up another scenario that suits your answer isn’t an answer.
Fortunately, I didn’t expect an answer.
Oh my poor head! I think I might need to rest.

And lets be accurate about this the Muslim religion does not require women to be seperate from men, anymore than it requires them to wear a full veil. As the guide said to me in Tunisia, the full veil is a cultural not a religious requirement and a modern Muslim state does not require women to wear it.
If a Muslim woman chooses to wear the hijab I would support her to do that freely and openly.
If she requires a private area to undress in she should be given that.
But public areas are an entirely different question,

Mollygo

He is a male.

Who introduced your granddaughter trisher?
She wasn’t there on this particular occasion. So answering my question by digging up another scenario that suits your answer isn’t an answer.
Fortunately, I didn’t expect an answer.
Oh my poor head! I think I might need to rest.

The changing rooms are not designated female Mollygo and isn't there a lot on this thread about allowing men to wear dresses? Apparently though they can't try them on.
My GD is just an example of when a male might be needed in a changing room.
A man who is the carer for his wife might need to be there as well

*Women and children firmly relegated to the play area and men gathered on the green area, males from about 11 or 12, up to men in their 60s.
The men had colonised a section of a public park and you don't regard that as worrying?*

I think it does sound worrying, yes, although it may simply have been that the men wanted to play football and the women didn't. That's what would have happened in my (heathen) family - none of the women are interested in football, and some of the men are. More importantly for this thread, though, I also think that this is yet another example of two wrongs not making a right - a 'straw man' argument if you prefer.

The issue of the freedoms of Muslim women are separate from issues of trans rights, although they have fallen under the same E&D umbrella.

Remember that not all Muslim women separate from men because of an oppressive husband/father/imam. I have friends who see it as liberating to cover their hair and to maintain a distance from men, and they do this with differing levels of strictness, sometimes based on their own judgement of the situation. As older women, I am pretty sure that none of them would be comfortable undressing behind a curtain when an extravert young person with a male body was on the other side. Not necessarily because of their faith, but because they would feel uncomfortable. I used to shop in Monsoon a lot, in the days when I could make a decent fist at setting off their clothes. The three branches I used regularly (a city centre one near my work, a small town one near my house, and a larger town one near my sister's) all had a curtained off area just off the main store as a changing room. The assistant would, if the shop was busy enough, stand by the curtains and let you in with your clothes, checking if there were a free 'cubicle' inside. The 'cubicles' were also just curtained areas, all of which opened onto a sort of corridor where sisters and friends could sit, and hand you clothes as you tried them on. There was very little privacy, as you had to open the curtain to do this, but the atmosphere was relaxed, as there were only women in there.

As a non-binary male, Charlie may have had a beard/stubble, very 'masculine' dress, a swagger and a deep voice, and entered the changing area 'presenting as' a man. He may not, of course, but as this was very clearly a publicity stunt, there is a good chance that this is the case - the shop assistant told Charlie that 'men' weren't allowed in there. It doesn't sound as though any attempt had been made to minimise any signifiers of masculinity.

Of course Twitter is media - it is one of the most effective ways of drawing attention to a cause - and the more I learn about this case the more I am certain that this was an orchestrated publicity stunt from the start.

All the non-binary young people I've known (several, over the years, including the child of a close friend) are shy, socially awkward types who would hate to draw attention to themselves in this way. Not a representative sample, agreed, but social anxiety and so-called 'gender neutrality' do appear to be linked.

trisher if you reveal information about yourself that makes you a whole real person other than your stance on trans issues... I think that's seen as dangerous and must be stomped on. If anyone is allowed to see you as a whole person then they can't say the mean things.

While you and me would probably happily engage in conversation in a way that promotes understanding of each other and, well, friendlyness because individuals should be respected in discussion... (I know this because we don't agree on other subjects)

Others don't think that way and want to categorise you as "other". Less than the sum of your parts. Everything about you as a woman is unacceptable if you are the wrong kind of woman on one issue.

Not just you and me on these threads Elegran as the first example that comes to mind uses a more productive discussion technique that doesn't deliberately misrepresent or try to poke people into biting back... Easy to respect

trisher

DiamondLily
I don't like religious dogma, any more than anything else. Any crowd if youths can be intimidating, I agree. Regardless of culture.
These were not "youths" these were families on a day out for some celebration. Women and children firmly relegated to the play area and men gathered on the green area, males from about 11 or 12, up to men in their 60s.
The men had colonised a section of a public park and you don't regard that as worrying?

I'm not Islamophobic but.........

You say colonised but why shouldn't they be in a public place? Did they try to stop you using the area either physically or with words? Do you complain about Pride marches too, they seem to 'take over' an area, and not everyone is welcome to share the space? Anyone remember the guy wearing an LGB alliance tshirt who was assaulted and hounded out during the pride gathering?
If you go to any orthodox Jewish areas you'll find numbers of families meeting up in parks to socialise and they'll often split into women plus children and men groups. Not my way, but I've no objection to others doing that.
Surely you feeling as you did is exactly how many women feel about men in some spaces, I'd have thought it might give you some empathy towards them.

VioletSky

trisher if you reveal information about yourself that makes you a whole real person other than your stance on trans issues... I think that's seen as dangerous and must be stomped on. If anyone is allowed to see you as a whole person then they can't say the mean things.

While you and me would probably happily engage in conversation in a way that promotes understanding of each other and, well, friendlyness because individuals should be respected in discussion... (I know this because we don't agree on other subjects)

Others don't think that way and want to categorise you as "other". Less than the sum of your parts. Everything about you as a woman is unacceptable if you are the wrong kind of woman on one issue.

I thought you didn't like people making assumptions about you, VS. You are very vocal about it, in fact.

Dressing up making assumptions about others in passive aggressive nonsense doesn't make it go away - it is still hypocritical and unkind. That's not me 'poking', incidentally - it is simply me responding to being poked (or does that not apply to you either?)

Excellent points, Rosie.

Everything about you as a woman is unacceptable if you are the wrong kind of woman on one issue or really on here, any issue that doesn’t put the rights of trans uber alles!
Oh don’t we know it!
We are the wrong kind of women
-for supporting AHF,
-for pointing out the changing stance in certain people’s posts e.g. being told AHF have the right to safe spaces, and then being told that’s only true in certain circumstances
-for asking questions that certain posters can’t answer without adding a little diversion to personalise it to themselves, which means they don’t answer the question.
for saying we don’t expect TW to identify themselves, merely not lie by fraudulently misrepresenting themselves when a natal female has been requested
-for asking, when rights are in direct opposition, how equality can be achieved, and pointing out that not answering is sitting on the fence
Your reasons for us being the wrong sort of women seem endless and as changeable as gender is for some folk.

I could go on, but in my current state of health I need another rest.

We are the

Rosie51

trisher

DiamondLily
I don't like religious dogma, any more than anything else. Any crowd if youths can be intimidating, I agree. Regardless of culture.
These were not "youths" these were families on a day out for some celebration. Women and children firmly relegated to the play area and men gathered on the green area, males from about 11 or 12, up to men in their 60s.
The men had colonised a section of a public park and you don't regard that as worrying?

I'm not Islamophobic but.........

You say colonised but why shouldn't they be in a public place? Did they try to stop you using the area either physically or with words? Do you complain about Pride marches too, they seem to 'take over' an area, and not everyone is welcome to share the space? Anyone remember the guy wearing an LGB alliance tshirt who was assaulted and hounded out during the pride gathering?
If you go to any orthodox Jewish areas you'll find numbers of families meeting up in parks to socialise and they'll often split into women plus children and men groups. Not my way, but I've no objection to others doing that.
Surely you feeling as you did is exactly how many women feel about men in some spaces, I'd have thought it might give you some empathy towards them.

Rosie51 I live in an area with one of the largest and most orthodox Jewish communities in the country. I have never found them either intimidating or threatening. They have regious rules which they observe carefully but which they never inflict on others.
And no this was not a case of men playing football and women doing something else. This was very much women left in the play area with children and men taking over the grassy area with little space in between them to walk, never mind play. And yes I used colonise deliberately because there is no other word to describe how that space was occupied. It was not a welcoming space any longer. It was a space for men only. Having lived through the fight for women to be admitted to only men's spaces,, having entered those spaces when they were first opened up I am not easily intimidated, but the atmosphere was distinctly unwelcoming and even hostile. I'm surprised anyone purporting to be a feminist woud support that.

Well, I say what I think...

Least I'm not "warning" people in secret

I judge people for myself and I say what I see

Nobody’s warning anyone in secret.
The warning was made here on the thread, or else how could you have known about it?
On the other hand I’m not reporting posters right left and centre either.

What warning was that then Mollygo?

Because so far all I've seen was "I was warned"

If I've missed something I'd like to address it

This is Charlie Moore. They don't look masculine.They look. like a teenager. They're coping with gender issues (God help them)

I have seen similar, trisher, and yes, it's unpleasant and 'alien'.

Nevertheless, the fact that this can happen does not make it ok for women to feel unable to shop in a women's clothes shop in a city centre. It really is a straw man argument.

It's not me reporting either lol 1 comment, 1 thread total.

Do you see how carrying a misconception about someone might colour how you engage with them?

I'm not ashamed of what I reported, it was beyond guideline breaking and actually quite sinister.

Otherwise peoples words I let stand because it says more about them than whoever they are making personal attacks at anyway. I just call it out instead.

If that is a photo of an activist, I wouldn't be too convinced that it is in any way consistent with different photos taken at different times for different purposes. I'm not that naive.

I accept Charlie Moore, I will respect their right to use spaces granted by the equality act and I believe the onus is on the company to achieve that for them and anyone else who would rather a seperate secure changing space

VioletSky

It's not me reporting either lol 1 comment, 1 thread total.

Do you see how carrying a misconception about someone might colour how you engage with them?

I'm not ashamed of what I reported, it was beyond guideline breaking and actually quite sinister.

Otherwise peoples words I let stand because it says more about them than whoever they are making personal attacks at anyway. I just call it out instead.

What are you talking about now, VS? I'm baffled.

Mollygo

Nobody’s warning anyone in secret.
The warning was made here on the thread, or else how could you have known about it?
On the other hand I’m not reporting posters right left and centre either.

This

VioletSky

I accept Charlie Moore, I will respect their right to use spaces granted by the equality act and I believe the onus is on the company to achieve that for them and anyone else who would rather a seperate secure changing space

To which part of the Equality Act are you referring, VS? And how would any exemptions apply in this instance?

Oh

VioletSky

Mollygo

Nobody’s warning anyone in secret.
The warning was made here on the thread, or else how could you have known about it?
On the other hand I’m not reporting posters right left and centre either.

This

Sorry, none the wiser.