the law as it stands on sex

Elegran yes I do agree with you there

It should have been thought through more carefully and stated more clearly.

We do have to remember though that trans people were already using many facilities without issue and there is no new reason for people who people believe are trans (which includes butch lesbians and masciline presenting women) to be receiving verbal or physical abuse using facilities.

So we must acknowledge that it is also a concern that protecting a characteristic should do exactly that, protect them, not open them up to any kind of hostility or discrimination.

Balance that with the fact that there is always an unwanted element who will take advantage of a situation to gain access where they shouldn't be so that needs to be safeguarded... Well every single trans ally I know would agree with me that until we can eliminate that element in society then there has to be areas trans people cannot enter. Yet while saying this door is closed to you there also needs to be alternatives for them that show we do care and they do matter. Which by opening trans wings in prisons or by finding ways to open up new criteria in sports is acheivble.

I strongly believe that.

Fantasising about making things equal and respecting everyone’s rights when it really means removing rights from one group and giving them to another is never going to be acceptable to those whose rights are being stolen.
Claiming those rights on behalf of the few members of a group whilst the rest of the group do not want them is damaging to the deprived group AND to the image of the other group members.
But as has been seen, those anxious to acquire what is not theirs and those who support them, do not care about the rest of the group.

Saying Anyone taking advantage of the situation to gain anything for their individual selves (fame, notoriety, political influence, power, control, access to vulnerable people) is a rubbish human, trans or not is accurate
But as has been seen, those anxious to acquire what is not theirs and those who support them, do not care about the rest of the group.
But it is just meaningless words if the people saying it continue to support the group that is doing it.

Which bit isn’t true? If you continue to support the whole trans group, making no difference between them and the harmful actions of the minority who endanger women and harm the image of the rest of the trans group, then what you said
Anyone taking advantage of the situation to gain anything for their individual selves (fame, notoriety, political influence, power, control, access to vulnerable people) is a rubbish human, trans or not is just meaningless words.
Do you accept that the minority of trans causing the damage- those cheating, lying, harming or claiming female rights for themselves are causing immense damage to the acceptance of trans who don’t act like that in addition to the harm to females?

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

Why ? Everything she said is factual.

I assume Ilovecheese's comment was a general one, and not aimed at you personally. Anyone referring to anyone as a hateful anything is not being kind!

Being kind is not enough - we also need to be just and fair - to everyone.

This is why these discussions are so damaging.

Pointing out things that people say that you take issue with is fair and should be encouraged.

Deciding who another person is and what they think or believe is wrong.

Continuing to talk and act as if another person thinks or believes something so that others reading believe you is wrong.

I don't do that, why do you?

VioletSky If there isn't a fuss about fine-tuning the details before the legislation is passed and trans rights are encased in concrete, then it will be much harder to get those details put into the laws afterwards. The whole thing will have to be fought over again, in a lot of separate conflicts about changing the law again to put back the things that women have achieved over decades.

Better have the objections aired NOW and the loopholes tidied up so that everyone gets a fair deal according to their needs.

Ilovecheese

Except I have never said that.

Do you see the issue there?

VioletSky

PS

My idea of a sensible middle doesn't lose anything for women at all. We will always have different needs to trans women and that always needs to be respected. I am simply able to come to that from a place of respect for trans people and their needs.

Those needs are primarily met by the medical community and I am not involved in that.

So what can I do?

I can only respect those needs and say, "you can come and sit next to me and I will treat you like a woman".

Referring to JK Rowling as a "hateful terf" was not very "kind"

It is when people act in such a way as to show that their beliefs and thoughts lead to them taking advantage of others or ignoring the problems of others that it becomes clear that the law as it is (or as activists are trying to make it) needs the fine detail tuned so that the taking advantage is curbed.

That is why here is such an outcry that female sports categories should NOT include those who owe their muscle, lung, build, size etc to the male influence of testosterone while they were going through puberty - if they took the same amount of testosterone deliberately, they would be disqualified from competing at all, let alone in female events.

Female abused women in refuges have psychological needs which are just as real and important as the psychological needs of trans women. One of those needs is knowing that males are banned from refuges. A friend knows a man who has been delivering suplies to a refuge for many years. He is gentle and trustworthy, well known to the staff, and would never cause any physical or mental harm to any of the women living there - but he has to leave boxes on the doorstep, he never sets foot inside.

If complete male men, with all their genitalia in working order, are legally indistinguishable from female women, then there is no longer any mechanism for excluding them from an area intended for women, unless and until they prove that they cannot be trusted there. That is too late!

A former male Gransnet member ( happily and faithfully married for many years, and still is, and now distressed that his wife is currently ill) was reported and banned for life for adding a comment to a thread about how GNers coped with husbands who got bored if asked to come shopping for clothes with them. His post was along the lines of "When Mrs X is shopping for clothes, I sit in the cafe with a cup of coffee and watch the girls go by until she has finished." If he can be penalised for that, but all it takes to be admitted to live in a refuge among traumatised women is to self-id as a woman, then where is the safety that Erin Pizzey fought for in that?

I will just leave this here…

PS

My idea of a sensible middle doesn't lose anything for women at all. We will always have different needs to trans women and that always needs to be respected. I am simply able to come to that from a place of respect for trans people and their needs.

Those needs are primarily met by the medical community and I am not involved in that.

So what can I do?

I can only respect those needs and say, "you can come and sit next to me and I will treat you like a woman".

FarNorth

I wonder if a genuine woman, or man, prisoner would be pandered to if they wanted baby treatment like this.

VioletSky your post makes sense if only you could realise that transwomen are transwomen, not actual women.

It actually makes no difference at all.

I've always understood genuine concerns

I've always tried to look for solutions to them

My saying TWAW makes no difference at all except for the fact others disagree that's the case... But it makes no difference in the long run because trans people have rights and are protected. Those protections cannot be taken away, it's down to individual organisations to get it right for everyone

Polarising the argument just forces those organisations to pick a side rather than coming together in a sensible middle where everyone feels safe and protected

I wonder if a genuine woman, or man, prisoner would be pandered to if they wanted baby treatment like this.

VioletSky your post makes sense if only you could realise that transwomen are transwomen, not actual women.

One can only hope he doesn't decide to identify as a horse next and start demanding a stable and a bale of hay a day lol
I hope he does.
At least then he might be taken out of a women's prison.

Except that's not true Mollygo and continuing to say so and try to polarise this into a with us or against us situation is just damaging

That damage shows every time you try to assign beliefs or thoughts to another human being that aren't there.

I have no need to do that, why do you?

DiamondLily

Fantasising, delusion, and manipulation are, I think, personality disorders.

I think perhaps the best thing to do is, when these prisoners make silly demands, is to remind them they are in prison for a reason.
And say No.

In this particular instance, that’s how you would treat a toddler who was making unreasonable demands.

The problem with expending psychiatric help on those knowingly determined to do wrong or manipulate situations to their own advantage is that it deprives the rest of the population of the help they truly need.

Fantasising about making things equal and respecting everyone’s rights when it really means removing rights from one group and giving them to another is never going to be acceptable to those whose rights are being stolen.
Claiming those rights on behalf of the few members of a group whilst the rest of the group do not want them is damaging to the deprived group AND to the image of the other group members.
But as has been seen, those anxious to acquire what is not theirs and those who support them, do not care about the rest of the group.

Saying Anyone taking advantage of the situation to gain anything for their individual selves (fame, notoriety, political influence, power, control, access to vulnerable people) is a rubbish human, trans or not is accurate
But it is just meaningless words if the people saying it continue to support the group that is doing it.

BTW accepting TWAW and looking at all the ways we can do that isn't actually wrong.

Where mistakes are being made trying to do that isn't wrong either, just as it wasn't wrong when trying to give women equal rights that actually there are times women need different treatment to men (think maternity leave, something the US has done so badly with).

It's just progress

Eventually we will find a way to make it all equal again and respect everyone's rights.

Anyone taking advantage of the situation to gain anything for their individual selves (fame, notoriety, political influence, power, control, access to vulnerable people etc) is a rubbish human trans or not.

Trans people, just existing and their allies giving them space to exist and be called men or women while respecting that there are differences that make their medical care (mental and physical) need the trans distinction should never be vilified.

It should probably be up to trained professionals to decide if someone is in need of help

That would mean applying common sense, DL, and there is precious little of that around when you step through the looking glass.

Yes, I agree, but places like Broadmoor are, really, for the criminally insane, and have limited places.

Fantasising, delusion, and manipulation are, I think, personality disorders.

I think perhaps the best thing to do is, when these prisoners make silly demands, is to remind them they are in prison for a reason.

And say No.

I'm not sure they are insane, in the clinical sense

Maybe not but they're most definitely passive aggressively manipulative.

Isn't that the basis of Catch 22?

If you are sane enough to claim insanity you can't be genuinely insane, even if you are utterly bonkers.

I think a lot of this is about attention seeking and self-indulgence, and I really don't think that prison is the place to indulge those things. I'm sure that for the cost of all the hand-holding and nappy changing a good few prisoners could have genuinely life-changing therapy or counselling that would be good both for them and for society as a whole.

I'm not sure they are insane, in the clinical sense. ?

A lot of this seems to be a way on getting attention and winding up the authorities. Justifiably, prison officers aren't too happy about pandering to someone that suddenly wants to wear nappies, to be fed puréed food, and have their hands held when walking anywhere around the prison...?

Prison is supposed to be about punishment and rehabilitation, and catering to all this seems to do neither.

Elegran

DiamondLily
I do wonder where all this self identifying is going to end.?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killer-now-identifies-infant-who-26675614
A move to Broadmoor? The best place for someone with multiple and shifting fantasy identities, who has shown homicidal tendencies.
Yes! Superb idea except we have to have some consideration for the people who genuinely need to be in Broadmoor.

DiamondLily

I do wonder where all this self identifying is going to end.?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killer-now-identifies-infant-who-26675614

A move to Broadmoor? The best place for someone with multiple and shifting fantasy identities, who has shown homicidal tendencies.