the law as it stands on sex

Identifying as Napoleon was once the classic signifier for insanity. Now it seems (unless there is more to this story than has been reported) that in prison, where mental health services are stretched to breaking point and beyond, identifying out of your sex class gives prisoners the right to identify into a group of their choice, and resources are found to accommodate their fetish/ lifestyle choice.

Why are they allowed to do this? Many of life’s frustrations are borne of the fact that people’s ideas of who they often are clash with reality. If you identify as a talented singer, or an insightful parent, or as the best person for an advertised job, but you are booed off the stage at karaoke, your kids groan when you offer them unsolicited advice or the promotion goes to someone else, on the whole you just have to live with it. Harsh, but fair, as they say.

People laugh at those who try to cling to youth by identifying with younger people and dressing or talking accordingly - unkind, maybe, but commonplace. Age, like ‘gender’ has norms that draw social sanctions when not followed - maybe it would be better for the mental health of the nation if everyone could ‘live as’ who they wish, but it doesn’t work like that. I might feel 25 in my head, but nobody is going to play along if I want them to pretend that I am 25.

What is it about identifying out of your sex class that’s so different? Why are disproportionate prison resources given to those who want to be seen as female and not those who identify as innocent? I understand that institutional life can be dehumanising, but part of the punishment is losing the right to self-determination. Prisoners don’t get to eat what and when they like, or to get up and go to bed when they feel like it because they are in prison. It’s not supposed to be about self actualisation.

Mollygo

And once again, these sick people are getting away with manipulating the system. This is happening in Scotland, but there’s no guarantee it isn’t also happening in the rest of the UK.

Well, it's the system letting them get away with it all.

This recent publicity, around self identifying, might have done us all a favour. This has all been introduced, backed by a shouting minority, without any consultation with those most affected, and been mainly under the public awareness radar.

My son lives in America and it's getting completely out of hand - people are identifying as virtually anything. And the one thing you can guarantee, with all these American "causes" is that it won't take long for it to make its way, over the pond, to the UK.?

And once again, these sick people are getting away with manipulating the system. This is happening in Scotland, but there’s no guarantee it isn’t also happening in the rest of the UK.

I don't know if he's disturbed or just conniving. The prison seem to think he's just manipulative and attention seeking.

He first of all identifies as a woman, and, after demands, is moved to a female prison.

Now, he's saying he identifies as a baby and wants to be treated as one and is demanding various "baby" things and services ..?

One can only hope he doesn't decide to identify as a horse next and start demanding a stable and a bale of hay a day lol

That is so ridiculous Lily.
That man, who is obviously very disturbed, should never be housed with women.
If he genuinely believes he is a baby, he should be in a secure psychiatric hospital, not a prison.

From the above Daily Mail article about the police :
"[The retired police superintendent] also questioned why the document places the entire emphasis for any objection on the individual being searched.

'If an individual is nervous before authority or they are overawed by the circumstances or if there is any issue with vulnerability whatsoever, to put the emphasis on them to object is quite astonishing,' she said."

This also applies in the hospital scenario where, trisher likes to tell us, it is simplicity itself to ask for another doctor or nurse if a patient believes they have been lied to about a medical person's sex.
Likewise in a refuge or counseling scenario.

I do wonder where all this self identifying is going to end.?

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killer-now-identifies-infant-who-26675614

That’s appalling, but unsurprising.

A retired police superintendent has revealed that self identifying TW police officers can strip search women prisoners.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10703327/Women-strip-searched-trans-officers-born-male-say-police.html

Rosie51

I feel enormous sympathy for the trans people who really wanted to merge with the wallpaper and just live their lives quietly without attention or prejudice. Mostly it's white, heterosexual (male) people that are stirring the pot and making everything 100 times harder, aided and abetted by the loyal handmaidens who will just walk away when the movement folds.

I agree. How many people have already pointed out the damage done to the trans cause by those trans who have been ‘stirring the pot’, and their handmaidens.
Transwomen like Karen White, Lia Thomas,
Mridul Wadhwa, who have not only damaged women, but whose actions reflect on how people see transwomen, making it impossible to think ‘transwoman’ without seeing them as being harmful in one way or another.

I think that things were changing anyway, but after seeing men cheating in weightlifting, swimming and cycling (amongst other things) more people will think deeper than a surface 'be kind' and the pendulum will swing even further.

I agree. And while I'm pleased that women may reclaim some ground that was lost, I feel enormous sympathy for the trans people who really wanted to merge with the wallpaper and just live their lives quietly without attention or prejudice. Mostly it's white, heterosexual (male) people that are stirring the pot and making everything 100 times harder, aided and abetted by the loyal handmaidens who will just walk away when the movement folds.

I honestly believe that the sport situation will have opened the eyes of many people who may not have thought about the implications of trans issues until recently.

It's easy to look on it as about inclusivity or tolerance without realising that saying that 'women' can include men is detrimental to the female sex, and that the idea that 'presenting as' a woman is about the sort of gender stereotypes that feminists have spent decades fighting against. You can't just dress differently and talk about 'feeling like' a woman and become one.

Now that people can see that the TWAW mantra is leading to people cheating in sport they will be able to extrapolate that to realise that the principle applies in other ways too, and that it is manifestly unfair.

I think that things were changing anyway, but after seeing men cheating in weightlifting, swimming and cycling (amongst other things) more people will think deeper than a surface 'be kind' and the pendulum will swing even further.

I think you could be right Chewbacca regarding Lia Thomas.

That sums it up very well GG13 I'm sorry to say.

Precisely GG13

This pretty much sums up the situation

Its worth undoing a lot of damage where possible in the name of truth and acceptance that men are not now, nor ever going to be female.
Do you think anybody, with the shortage of funds for treatment of diseases like cancer, COPD, Alzheimer’s, spinal muscular atrophy or motor neurone disease, would be selfish enough to consider trying to make XY chromosomes into XX a good use of funding.
Hmmm . . . Well . . .
If they say they would, I’ll be looking out for the posters putting their money where their mouth is and creating crowdfunding to do it.

VioletSky

Its worth undoing a little damage where possible in the name of love and acceptance

I do agree, and it's the outright hate and vile, vile threats made to people like JKR, Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater, Alison Bailey et al that prompt me to support them financially as well as theoretically. Love and acceptance that they're honest people without the vile abusive streak so many of their detractors possess. If only respect and acceptance could be extended to women (females) who want some few areas to be single sex female only. Requesting and getting a female doctor or nurse when a female has been requested, and not a trans identified male who 'passes', would be 'love and acceptance' personified.

Having resigned from the Labour Party after my mp Alex Sobel pronounced clearly and loudly that gender critical feminists were bigots I joined the WEP and then resigned from them as they followed the self ID gender ideology so then when Shahrar Ali was up for leader in the greens I joined them but then he lost so I give to his crowdfunder with Maya Forstater. I wrote to my Labour councillor of my concern no reply and was going to spoil my vote but I wrote to the green candidate who is very hardworking and he answered me fully talked about Shahrar and said it was complicated but getting better, good for him I’m going to vote for him. Just to be listened to and answered is something!

Fill your boots; no one's stopping you. Your cash, your choice .

Its worth undoing a little damage where possible in the name of love and acceptance

Don't think it is an age thing Smileless; pretty much every thread on the Feminist forums on Mumsnet have links to crowd funding to pay for legal fees. It's astonishing that, even the women who admit to being very cash strapped, feel so strongly that Stonewall and the TRAs have to be reined , that they donate over and over again. I'm beginning to think that we might actually owe Lia Thomas a debt of gratitude for propelling the trans issues into the spotlight and waking people up to what the TRAs and their "allies" have been trying to convince us is "perfectly acceptable".

Rosie51
Galaxy
Its a costly way to prove a point VS I should know. I got into a habit of donating to JKR s charity and other organisations when I got irritated on the internet
Oh me too Galaxy I bought all the HP
books, all the Strike books, donate regularly to Lumos, do every crowd funder for Alison Bailey, Maya Forstater et al. Costs a blooming fortune, but if you've got principles sometimes they cost.

I’ve only done a few crowdfunders, but I’ve spent this week with Covid re-reading JKR’s Strike books in preparation for the new one. I hope that vouches for my principles.

Me too Allsorts maybe it's an age thing.

If I added up what I’ve spent on Crowd Funders, etc. over the last couple of years, I’d probably get a bit of a surprise. But I’ve hardly been out and about since COVID started, and don’t spend much on myself, and as you say Rosie51, principles can cost.

Never fan of Germaine Greer when she was young. However since being old and bit eccentric people I agree with her.