the law as it stands on sex

Really, all that’s happening now is that you are reverting to type and picking holes in the wording of my post, instead of engaging with what I am saying, trusher. It’s frustrating, gets us nowhere and suggests that either you are not interested in a debate or that you have no answer to the issues I pose, but are digging your heels in regardless.

Why could it possibly be ok for someone to pretend to be female whilst intimately examining a woman? Why would one person’s right to privacy trump another’s right to give informed consent?

And the idea that a man dressed as a woman with a fake pregnancy bump would not draw attention to himself when shoplifting is frankly ridiculous. Commonplace? Do you have any evidence of that?

trisher
I'm not in counselling and not sure how people who are would feel about it. Many might object to providing details they regard as personal. I'll talk to a few people and see what they think.

The people I talk to will obviously think what I tell them to think and if they don’t, their responses will be eliminated from my investigations.

Now we’re into ‘common practice among shoplifters’ -what a lot you know about some things. I wonder why.
So a man doing it would get a mandatory sentence on top of the shoplifting. That seems unnecessary and certainly not equality.
Equality? For using his TW identity to commit a crime! The situation isn’t equal to start with. He’s committing a crime for which, if he’s convicted, current practice would suggest recording as a female crime, thus skewing the figures to make men look less guilty.

Would you support that being recorded as a female crime?
I’m not asking whether you’re happy with the law or whether you’re going to swap the word female and answer using woman
I’m asking would you support this tw’s shoplifting being recorded as a female crime?

Rosie51

trisher as asked before. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset

Not counselling, a physical intimate examination

I’d like to know this too.
Do you think it’s legal for someone involved in my medical welfare to be allowed to lie before they gain access to my body to carry out even the simplest procedure?
If you think yes, (and I’m not telling you what to think) then you would also condone the man knocking on my door and lying that he’s from the gas board, when in fact he wants to gain access to my house.
Obtaining something by fraud (pretending to be female when a female has been requested) must surely be wrong, even to you trisher.

trisher as asked before. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset

Not counselling, a physical intimate examination.

*It's already against the law to show any genitals Doodledog. It's called indecent exposure. www.dpp-law.com/blog/punishment-for-indecent-exposure/*
Yes. But indecent exposure requires the perpetrator to expose himself with the intent to cause harm or distress. I would prefer to see it made an offence to show male genitals in female spaces when changing, so that the likes of Lea Thomas can't pretend that they are simply getting ready, and not flaunting male genitals.
The law also discriminates between accidental exposure and deliberate exposure so if there was "flaunting" it would be an offense.
The amount of paper work that would exist if that regulation were to be put on hospitals and the impossibility of doing it in many hospials would make that law absolutely unworkable. Not to mention the cost to the NHS. I've already said how my local hospital works. It would be impossible to guarantee the same level of service to both sexes if that law was put in place. So would you be happy to see women waiting for beds whilst beds on male wards stood empty? Or is it best that the present system which makes full use of all the facilities is allowed to continue?
I was asked what I would like to see in law. Laws should not be concerned with the paperwork they might require. No, I wouldn't want to see women wait for beds - just for wards to be single-sex (have more for women if more women need them) and for their allocation to be sex based and not on the basis of 'gender'.
If a law is unworkable in practice it is no use as a law I would have thought that would be obvious.

You missed this out
If it is illegal to enter a space for women What would be on this list and how would this law be enforced and the spaces monitored? Would this mean say that every set of toilets and changing rooms would need two cleaners one of each sex to ensure the law wasn't broken?
It is of course the difficult bit

A mandatory extra sentence for using gender id that's a bit extreme. If a transwomen shoplifts wearing a fake baby bump would that attract a mandatory sentence?
Why not? And I don't think it is extreme. I'm thinking more in terms of someone pretending to be a woman to gain access to a female space, but if a man pretends to be a pregnant woman to shoplift (why would they do this?) knowing that there would be an additional sentence, on his head be it. I can't see it causing a rash of unjust sentencing, can you? Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but I've never heard of such a thing.
It's common practice amongst women shoplifters. The bump helps to hide things. So a man doing it would get a mandatory sentence on top of the shoplifting. That seems unnecessary and certainly not equality.

I'm not sure about the law on counselling or how it would work in practice. I think it needs more thought. I'm not in counselling and not sure how people who are would feel about it. Many might object to providing details they regard as personal. I'll talk to a few people and see what they think

So you would deny women, some of whom are here, telling you that we don’t want to be in mixed wards, the right to self-determination because you don’t think single rooms are ideal?

And the issue of allowing women to give or withhold informed consent to intimate discussions and/or examinations?

Same here FarNorth.
The first time I was in hospital here ? 1964 I was in a mixed ward.
No touble at all.
I think this hs become the huge issue it is since medical knowledge has 'advanced' and its potential increased plus the social drive to extend our rights to be happy in our sexuality

FarNorth

^The bays are designated for men or women, but the ward is mixed. and bays can be changed to accommodate differing numbers of each sex..If wards were single sex, one of the two wards like this would have to be designated as male and the other as female. As there are more older women, beds in the male ward would stand empty and women would have to wait for beds.^

Surely designating transwomen as female will only make the situation worse.

If transmen and transwomen are all designated as male, they can help with the problem by being in a male bay.
Clearly they are all happy with a mixed sex environment so all will be fine.

Btw, my local hospital used to be like this but changed back to single sex wards several years ago and managed fine, as far as I know.
Now we have a brand new hospital with single rooms for all - the ideal!

I don't think single rooms are ideal for all FarNorth especially for elderly patients. When my mother was moved into a single room because of infection she deteriorated rapidly. Although we spent much more time with her than the allotted visiting hours she missed the interaction and social contact. Once returned to her bay she improved.

The bays are designated for men or women, but the ward is mixed. and bays can be changed to accommodate differing numbers of each sex..If wards were single sex, one of the two wards like this would have to be designated as male and the other as female. As there are more older women, beds in the male ward would stand empty and women would have to wait for beds.

Surely designating transwomen as female will only make the situation worse.

If transmen and transwomen are all designated as male, they can help with the problem by being in a male bay.
Clearly they are all happy with a mixed sex environment so all will be fine.

Btw, my local hospital used to be like this but changed back to single sex wards several years ago and managed fine, as far as I know.
Now we have a brand new hospital with single rooms for all - the ideal!

Here’s an example of the root of the problem that trisher doesn’t want to see. The female should not be put in this position, rather than having to “deal with it” when it happens.

*It's already against the law to show any genitals Doodledog. It's called indecent exposure. www.dpp-law.com/blog/punishment-for-indecent-exposure/*
Yes. But indecent exposure requires the perpetrator to expose himself with the intent to cause harm or distress. I would prefer to see it made an offence to show male genitals in female spaces when changing, so that the likes of Lea Thomas can't pretend that they are simply getting ready, and not flaunting male genitals.

The amount of paper work that would exist if that regulation were to be put on hospitals and the impossibility of doing it in many hospials would make that law absolutely unworkable. Not to mention the cost to the NHS. I've already said how my local hospital works. It would be impossible to guarantee the same level of service to both sexes if that law was put in place. So would you be happy to see women waiting for beds whilst beds on male wards stood empty? Or is it best that the present system which makes full use of all the facilities is allowed to continue?
I was asked what I would like to see in law. Laws should not be concerned with the paperwork they might require. No, I wouldn't want to see women wait for beds - just for wards to be single-sex (have more for women if more women need them) and for their allocation to be sex based and not on the basis of 'gender'.

It is permitted to ban transwomen from spaces already.
so you keep saying, but only if they are preventing women from attending by their presence. The onus, therefore, would be on an objecting woman to prove that this is the case. how would she do that - actually, scrap that - why should she have to? A law that requires citizens to carry out a survey before it can be carried out is toothless.

Prisons are being dealt with too slowly admitedly but it is happening.
Good. In the meantime, why not have single sex prisons until a better system is achieved?

A mandatory extra sentence for using gender id that's a bit extreme. If a transwomen shoplifts wearing a fake baby bump would that attract a mandatory sentence?
Why not? And I don't think it is extreme. I'm thinking more in terms of someone pretending to be a woman to gain access to a female space, but if a man pretends to be a pregnant woman to shoplift (why would they do this?) knowing that there would be an additional sentence, on his head be it. I can't see it causing a rash of unjust sentencing, can you? Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but I've never heard of such a thing.

You've ignored the one about having to declare your sex before counselling or intimately examining someone of the opposite sex. Rosie is also interested in your reaction to this idea - what do you think?

I'm probably just a dozey old woman but I find these discusions almost incomprehensible
What I need is a new dictionary and language book on the subject.
Any of you experts ready to create one?
In any case, any new legislation will need something like this for definition of terms.

Very clear good points Doodledog

I've asked this twice, even quoting myself, it still gets ignored.
If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset but I actually think your suggestion is better, the legal need to declare your transition. Until then I stand by my point if I ask for a female then a transwoman does not met that requirement.

It's already against the law to show any genitals Doodledog. It's called indecent exposure. www.dpp-law.com/blog/punishment-for-indecent-exposure/

The amount of paper work that would exist if that regulation were to be put on hospitals and the impossibility of doing it in many hospials would make that law absolutely unworkable. Not to mention the cost to the NHS. I've already said how my local hospital works. It would be impossible to guarantee the same level of service to both sexes if that law was put in place. So would you be happy to see women waiting for beds whilst beds on male wards stood empty? Or is it best that the present system which makes full use of all the facilities is allowed to continue?

If it is illegal to enter a space for women What would be on this list and how would this law be enforced and the spaces monitored? Would this mean say that every set of toilets and changing rooms would need two cleaners one of each sex to ensure the law wasn't broken?
It is permitted to ban transwomen from spaces already

Prisons are being dealt with too slowly admitedly but it is happening.

A mandatory extra sentence for using gender id that's a bit extreme. If a transwomen shoplifts wearing a fake baby bump would that attract a mandatory sentence?

I don't know what I didn't make clear.

I would like to see:
A law that puts a legal obligation onto anyone intending to counsel or intimately examine a member of the opposite sex to make it clear if they have transitioned, so that the client/patient can give or withhold informed consent.

A law that makes it an offence to enter a space designed for women (these could be listed for avoidance of doubt) and to have or put male genitals on show.

A law that brings in a mandatory extra sentence for an offence committed when the offender has used 'gender id' to aid its committal.

A law that puts an obligation onto hospital staff to offer patients a bed in a same-sex ward, and not to deny the existence of trans patients if there are any. If there are no beds available on the ward or on side wards, it should be the trans patient who moves to a mixed sex ward, or if there is no mixed sex ward available, to one that matches their sex.

No male bodied person should be housed on a female wing in a prison.

I have said all of the above more than once. What is not clear?

Doodledog

*trisher*, it’s clear that you don’t agree with what we are saying, and that, of course, is your prerogative. But do you understand our concerns, or are they beyond your comprehension?

I understand Doodledog what I don't see is any clear indication of what the legislation would be, how it would differ from the present legislation, how it would be enforced. and what the consequences would be.
So perhaps you can understand that I prefer the established law and the protection it affords rather than some unknown, unclear untested legislation.

No no trisher, I'm not confused about anything. Why would you assume that?

It's true I don't base reality on labels. That IS confusing...libertarian one day, confirmed anarchist the next. Goodness me! How would you know what to think if you bought into every new persona people come up with?

I think I'll leave the believing of labels to you and stick with reality.

Here is Sinead Watson explaining how things went when she wished to transition.
(6 mins)

youtu.be/oyMbTd1crgs

trisher, it’s clear that you don’t agree with what we are saying, and that, of course, is your prerogative. But do you understand our concerns, or are they beyond your comprehension?

Our grand daughter is a competitive swimmer and took part in the British Swimming Championships in Sheffield on Sunday.
She had her 18th birthday last week so now has to compete in the "women's " section instead of "girls"
Those who were "boys" are now "men".
So the old language is still used there.
(Unless some of them were 'trans.) All the swimmers were very strongly built.

NannyJaneAnne

It's vital that we retain single sex spaces for our grandchildren. It's outrageous that women should be challenged for wanting to meet, to pee, to seek refuge, with male-bodied people. I am intending to ask everyone who knocks on my door asking for my vote, to explain it to me.

Make sure you use the word female, not woman.
The word women has been vandalised by men and some female supporters of the patriarchy who will assure you with great pleasure that the title of woman includes any male who claims it.
Thus rendering any concerns expressed by you invalid.

^You have the right to accept or refuse treatment that is offered to you, and not to be given any physical examination or treatment unless you have given valid consent.
No mention of giving a reason.^

That doesn't answer my point If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset.
I think it will be pretty obvious why I am now rejecting this person if indeed I'm brave enough to do so, and likely I would be expected to forego my treatment. When someone asks for a female they should be provided with a female not a transwoman who is at that point lying.

Rosie51

Rosie51

You have the right to refuse to be examined by anyone why would you need to know their trans status? If you don't like the look of them say "no" and you just try saying that in a hospital setting, get labelled transphobic and treatment withheld. Still as long as the transwoman (it's always a transwoman exerting their male privilege) is validated. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset.

Added to the above which you still haven't addressed trisher your description of your local hospital ward of 6 bed bays will work if each bay has its own bathroom and toilet facility, so it will only be used by one sex. Where there are only communal facilities for several bays those facilities will become mixed sex. Where is the transwoman complete with penis to be placed? With single sex bays/wards they should be placed on the men's ward as is right, but some hospital trusts are already proclaiming they have no intention of implementing the clear EHRC guidelines, as they wish to be trans inclusive, even to the point of risking harm to females.

The bays do have their own facilities, but together they constitute one ward so for the purposes of record keeping it will be described as a mixed sex ward. This is somethng people are insisting they don't want, but it works well and it provides decent services for both sexes. Just goes to show one size doesn't fit all. Because of the number of women living longer such policies could negatively impact on women,.

As for the requests for a different practitioner you have no need to state any reason when asking for someone else. NHS guidelines say You have the right to accept or refuse treatment that is offered to you, and not to be given any physical examination or treatment unless you have given valid consent.
No mention of giving a reason.

It's vital that we retain single sex spaces for our grandchildren. It's outrageous that women should be challenged for wanting to meet, to pee, to seek refuge, with male-bodied people. I am intending to ask everyone who knocks on my door asking for my vote, to explain it to me.

Johnson has made clear what some of his views (for today) are.

However, it could well be different tomorrow as his views change frequently, depending on who he is talking to.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10691889/Boris-Johnson-says-DOESNT-think-biological-men-competing-female-sporting-events.html

Rosie51

^You have the right to refuse to be examined by anyone why would you need to know their trans status? If you don't like the look of them say "no"^ and you just try saying that in a hospital setting, get labelled transphobic and treatment withheld. Still as long as the transwoman (it's always a transwoman exerting their male privilege) is validated. If I request that I am attended by a female practitioner and a transwoman appears then that person is already lying. They are not and never can be female. Why is the onus on me to object, why isn't the onus on them to be honest? I thought you agreed with informed consent? I can't give informed consent if I'm being lied to at the outset.

Added to the above which you still haven't addressed trisher your description of your local hospital ward of 6 bed bays will work if each bay has its own bathroom and toilet facility, so it will only be used by one sex. Where there are only communal facilities for several bays those facilities will become mixed sex. Where is the transwoman complete with penis to be placed? With single sex bays/wards they should be placed on the men's ward as is right, but some hospital trusts are already proclaiming they have no intention of implementing the clear EHRC guidelines, as they wish to be trans inclusive, even to the point of risking harm to females.