the law as it stands on sex

trisher

FannyCornforth

So trans women are women
But
Trans women are not female

Is that right trisher?

Yes of course. Female is a sex definition.

So what's the difference between a woman, a transwoman and a man in a dress?

I am not going to embrace stereotypes no matter how much people want me to.

Trisher, no matter how much you may want it to be true, Transwomen are not female.
Some insist on saying Trans Women Are Women, I find that rude.
I truthfully point out Trans Women Are Transwomen!
I dare say some find that rude although I don’t see how, as it’s as true as the other version.

Only because of the stupidity of a man who wanted it all his own way back in 2004 are some people really confused about ‘woman’ not being female.

As for keeping it polite? Don’t make me laugh!

How is it polite for at least one poster to answer every question I ask about females, by substituting the word ‘woman’? It shows incredible biological ignorance and really bad manners, as does continuing to use the word cis when people have asked a poster not to do so because they find it offensive!

And no I don’t have to make all my judgements on gender. That’s a TGV statement. When children come into school
they are registered m or f. Even those parents who have decided that their 4 year-old girl already wants to be a boy, and we allow that, have to register them m or f.

When a TW appears as a male in a female mental health ward or in the communal changing rooms I judge him to be m.

When I catch sight of a fabulously costumed person on Ru Paul as I flip through the channels to find David Attenborough(m), I judge the fabulous costumed person to be a male.

In circumstances which don’t require me to decide, I don’t make a judgement at all.

You are so transparent!

You guess? How very insulting and rude! (guess and assume have similar meaning)

I do hope your 15 year old students are capable of understanding the basics of biology.

Rosie51

GagaJo

Rosie51

GagaJo

FarNorth

What is a man?

Good question. What I can remember from my studies (way back in the mists of time) is that men are definitely made, not born.

What studies? I assume they didn't include biology or sexual reproduction then?

Ridiculing someone Rosie51? Same goes for you MollyGo.
What happened to keeping it polite? Things had been improving on here in terms of civility. Please don't pull them down again unnecessary.

It is possible to disagree without turning things into personal attacks you know.

How is it ridicule? You state from your studies men are definitely made, not born. Now this is a startling statement to anyone with a scientific background, so I assumed (would that be wrongly?) that you hadn't studied biology or indeed sexual reproduction. Perhaps you would be so good as to enlighten us which particular studies led you to the fact that men aren't born male.

Given that you stated elsewhere that Grayson Perry is trans which you conceded later was incorrect, am I not permitted to wonder whether you have confused yourself about another 'fact'?

What studies? I assume they didn't include biology or sexual reproduction then?

I guess our standards of polite discussion are different. However, I would note that most my 15 year old students would recognise that as an insult.

And by 'enlighten' you clearly mean, 'make another statement I disagree with and can be rude about'.

Galaxy

Gender is a range of oppressive stereotypes that do damage to men and women.

Well perhaps but most of us live our lives according to them. Might be lovely if we didn't, but there you go.
It does explain why young people are going gender neutral.

FannyCornforth

So trans women are women
But
Trans women are not female

Is that right trisher?

Yes of course. Female is a sex definition.

Sharron Davies recently said ‘it’s not about feelings; it’s about bodies’

It dropped part of my post. The person in the picture can wear as many frills and flounces as they like I'll still recognise them as male without any sight of his penis.

trisher

Woman is a gender term. It has no relation to sex. Sex is female. You rarely see or know another person's sex or have definite proof of it.
You make all your judgements on gender. So really you have no idea what is under anyone's clothes. And women can have a penis. Because woman is a gender term nothing to do with sex or penises.
But I accept it's a difficult concept for some people to grasp.

You make all your judgements on gender

What is gender then? Nothing more than historical, cultural stereotypes? Seems a very retrograde step to take.

Still that makes it even easier for the categorisation of sports, they're single sex, gender does not come into it. They've always been separated by sex, only recently has gender been considered, and that was gender being a polite term for sex. On your way Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges. There can be no dispute. Sport separates by sex not gender.

So trans women are women
But
Trans women are not female

Is that right trisher?

Gender is a range of oppressive stereotypes that do damage to men and women.

trisher

Woman is a gender term. It has no relation to sex. Sex is female. You rarely see or know another person's sex or have definite proof of it.
You make all your judgements on gender. So really you have no idea what is under anyone's clothes. And women can have a penis. Because woman is a gender term nothing to do with sex or penises.
But I accept it's a difficult concept for some people to grasp.

Not difficult at all

Penis & testicles = male/man

Cervix & ovaries = female/woman

Unless of course you would like to inform the scientific & medical world that you know/can prove different?

Woman is a gender term. It has no relation to sex. Sex is female. You rarely see or know another person's sex or have definite proof of it.
You make all your judgements on gender. So really you have no idea what is under anyone's clothes. And women can have a penis. Because woman is a gender term nothing to do with sex or penises.
But I accept it's a difficult concept for some people to grasp.

Gagajo basic biology & physiology…

GagaJo

Rosie51

GagaJo

FarNorth

What is a man?

Good question. What I can remember from my studies (way back in the mists of time) is that men are definitely made, not born.

What studies? I assume they didn't include biology or sexual reproduction then?

Ridiculing someone Rosie51? Same goes for you MollyGo.
What happened to keeping it polite? Things had been improving on here in terms of civility. Please don't pull them down again unnecessary.

It is possible to disagree without turning things into personal attacks you know.

How is it ridicule? You state from your studies men are definitely made, not born. Now this is a startling statement to anyone with a scientific background, so I assumed (would that be wrongly?) that you hadn't studied biology or indeed sexual reproduction. Perhaps you would be so good as to enlighten us which particular studies led you to the fact that men aren't born male.

Given that you stated elsewhere that Grayson Perry is trans which you conceded later was incorrect, am I not permitted to wonder whether you have confused yourself about another 'fact'?

GrannyGravy13

trisher you really do need to learn some basic biology if you think some trans women have penises

Anyone with a penis is a man

In your opinion. Others don't believe that. Personal choice.

If all it takes to be a man is a penis, there are a lot of non men walking around.

Emily thornberry didnt believe a word she said. It was obvious to anyone watching. She couldnt get the sentence out. It wasnt about a penis this time it was about the definition of a woman. But both those questions will be asked ad nauseum from now on and the tories will delight in it.

trisher you really do need to learn some basic biology if you think some trans women have penises

Anyone with a penis is a man

Go for it trisher. You will hand the election to Johnson on a plate.

Galaxy

Dear god I have just seen emily thornberry being asked similar except about women. This issue is going to do to the labour party what it did to the lib dems. How stupid are they. Every interview at election time will now involve this discussion and voters will watch the labour party saying of course women can have a penis. Whilst children live in poverty. I am furious with them.

Well actually I'm furious with anyone who thinks it's just a matter of a bloke having his penis chopped off. Of course there are transwomen with penises. The current waiting list for surgery is two years. So a transwomen has to be a man because surgery isn't available? or possible because of some on-going health problem?
Get over it. Some transwomen have penises. Transwomen are women. Therefore some women have penises. You are no more likely in the normal run of things to know if a woman has a penis than you are to know if she has had a masectomy. And in everyday life it causes little difference anyway.

FarNorth

GagaJo what does that mean?
Are you saying that coaching from the earliest age is needed?
So transmen cannot be men?

And you really have to think back to your studies to work it out?
You have no idea when you meet someone if they are a man or not?

I've met plenty of women that you would think were men FarNorth.

Masculinity is a construct which is policed much more heavily than femininity.

But if you dont want a discussion, I'm happy to bow out. I'm not engaging in conversation with people that can't keep it polite. Not a dig at you, BTW, but at others who immediately want to make personal comments.

Galaxy

Dear god I have just seen emily thornberry being asked similar except about women. This issue is going to do to the labour party what it did to the lib dems. How stupid are they. Every interview at election time will now involve this discussion and voters will watch the labour party saying of course women can have a penis. Whilst children live in poverty. I am furious with them.

The interviewees need to start reframing the question that they are asked to suit the question that they want to answer. Some on GN are expert at doing that.
Dear Emily Thornberry,
Here is some useful advice.
If asked, “Can a woman have a penis?
answer “A female or a female woman cannot have a penis. That’s biology!”
Or “ A trans-woman can have a penis.”
You will learn the undying admiration and gratitude of thousands of females and the undoubted dislike of TRA’s.

Rosie51

GagaJo

FarNorth

What is a man?

Good question. What I can remember from my studies (way back in the mists of time) is that men are definitely made, not born.

What studies? I assume they didn't include biology or sexual reproduction then?

Ridiculing someone Rosie51? Same goes for you MollyGo.
What happened to keeping it polite? Things had been improving on here in terms of civility. Please don't pull them down again unnecessary.

It is possible to disagree without turning things into personal attacks you know.

Dear god I have just seen emily thornberry being asked similar except about women. This issue is going to do to the labour party what it did to the lib dems. How stupid are they. Every interview at election time will now involve this discussion and voters will watch the labour party saying of course women can have a penis. Whilst children live in poverty. I am furious with them.