Coming out as transgender

Either way, he wasn't suitable, in my view, to be an MP. He also shouldn't be driving if his PTSD makes him run away from a car accident, before he can be breathalysed.

Yes I know. He was obviously a strong believer in equal opportunities in his exploitation of others.

The Tory Trans MP has some ineresting business connections,
Sugar Daddy wasn't just for women, it catered for all.
www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/jamie-wallis-sugar-daddies

I have never voted Tory and I am not going to start now, but I do want Labour politicians and Keir Starmer in particular to give a very clear answer when journalists ask him what a woman is or whether a woman can have a penis because up to now his non answers have made him look weak.
There is a thread on Mumsnet calling him spineless and wondering how he could possibly take his place with other countries leaders as an equal.
I don't believe for a second that the Tories care more about women but they know a vote winning answer when they see one.
I don't know why so many women vote Tory but they do and Labour have to see that and try and think of ways to encourage them to vote Labour. Calling them dinosaurs like David Lammy did is not going to change anyone's mind.

On a personal level, we occasionally have a real Socialist candidate in my area and if we have one at the next general election I will vote for them. In May I will vote Labour because of Andy Burnham.

Iam64

Pops in, breathes deeply, waves to doodle, Galaxy, Rosie Nanny49 and others who continue to debate in the face of some unpleasant goading and provocation.

I’m a long term Labour voter. No secret that I saw Corbyn as a disaster. I voted for my good Labour mp who lost his seat. Voters were very clear, never vote Labour wi’yon mon in charge love, we were told. They didn’t either. Labour has to have a wide appeal to beat the tories. The country is suffering from years of Tory misrule.
We are beyond any point where politicians in the LP can refuse to answer. I sympathies with Yvette Cooper when she avoided going down the rabbit hole but it won’t do. The parry needs a coherent response.

Yes, it does. People vote for many issues, primarily their own living standards I would guess, but other things as well, and trans issues will obviously, at the next election, be one of them, for some people.

Others don't care either way.

I wouldn't vote Tory, regardless of whatever, despite our local Tory MP being pretty ok. The cabinet etc are hopeless and self serving.

I wonder, though, hypothetically, whether those on here saying Labour alone should be voted for to save the NHS etc, would still vote for them, if Labour came out and said that, as a party, they didn't recognise TW as women, and in future people would only have the rights and facilities their "sex at birth" entitled them to?

Dear god, constituency that should say.

And I have been thinking about the 'importance' of some issues over others. And sometimes seemingly smaller issues of right/wrong may trump for me the larger moral issues of the nhs, etc. If the labour candidate in my constitiency ran a sugar daddy website, I could not and would not vote for him. I wouldnt vote tory but my seat after the last election is a target seat to win back so its not as if every vote doesn't count here. Its interesting. Thankfully our tory mp has an interesting history shall we say so I can confidently not vote for them on all counts.

Pops in, breathes deeply, waves to doodle, Galaxy, Rosie Nanny49 and others who continue to debate in the face of some unpleasant goading and provocation.

I’m a long term Labour voter. No secret that I saw Corbyn as a disaster. I voted for my good Labour mp who lost his seat. Voters were very clear, never vote Labour wi’yon mon in charge love, we were told. They didn’t either. Labour has to have a wide appeal to beat the tories. The country is suffering from years of Tory misrule.
We are beyond any point where politicians in the LP can refuse to answer. I sympathies with Yvette Cooper when she avoided going down the rabbit hole but it won’t do. The parry needs a coherent response.

I don't think the Tories care about women's rights. I think that the electorate are utterly sick of hearing about trans issues (as can be seen by a lot of 'Groundhog Day' comments on here) and will see Johnson's comments as sensible. And the LP has handled the whole thing incredibly badly, as have the Lib Dems and the SNP.

In other words, I agree with what Galaxy says upthread .

If you keep telling people they have 'fallen for it', I dont mean on here, I mean if thats the message you send to the electorate at large, we will have a tory government.

Nannee49

No trisher I'm not suggesting you made it up and I know all about the vile manipulation of working class women, arrested, imprisoned, force fed and abandoned by arrogant middle class suffragettes to further their own agenda.
What I object to is your using the evils of the Tory party per se to validate the view that, because these women have Tory connections and possible agendas, there can be no value in what they're saying regarding upholding womens' rights and sensibilities and that if we hold the same view i.e. no vote for a party/politician who doesn't respect my sex then we're supping with the Devil Tories and don't have minds of our own.
I direct the quote at ALL parties and I am not swayed by any agenda I've not fully explored and evaluated. I'm not daft.

No I'm saying look at the evidence.
Look at what the Tory party has done for women and ask yourself why on earth they are now suddenly concerned about their rights? It's absolutely nothing to do with women or their rights. It's to stop anyone focussing on what has actually happened and the dreadful economic mess we are in. IT's sleight hand. Of course once you've fallen for it women, transwomen and every minority group in existence will be worse off. Divide and conquer.
Incidently middle class suffragettes were imprisoned and force fed, it was by no means confined to the working class women.In fact there are very few working class women imprisoned. They couldn't afford the time away from work or the loss of reputation.

And since you are badgering me for what I think, I’ll tell you that I vote for parties that have the closest set of priorities to mine. I don’t ascribe nefarious agendas to parties that have some differences from me. I look at the entirely of their policies. I don’t make fantastical extrapolations about their policies that make me look like I’m paranoid.

That sounds sensible.

Few years even.

The trouble is it doesnt matter how 'we' vote. The electorate tend not to vote in the way people on the internet want them to vote they are a bugger that way . And the labour party (there are other parties but its the one I vote for) need to look how can I put it, as if they are not absolutely bonkers. Because whether you like it or not for a large part of the electorate that was how they were seen for the last view years. They have allowed themselves to fall into this hole.

No trisher I'm not suggesting you made it up and I know all about the vile manipulation of working class women, arrested, imprisoned, force fed and abandoned by arrogant middle class suffragettes to further their own agenda.
What I object to is your using the evils of the Tory party per se to validate the view that, because these women have Tory connections and possible agendas, there can be no value in what they're saying regarding upholding womens' rights and sensibilities and that if we hold the same view i.e. no vote for a party/politician who doesn't respect my sex then we're supping with the Devil Tories and don't have minds of our own.
I direct the quote at ALL parties and I am not swayed by any agenda I've not fully explored and evaluated. I'm not daft.

Clearly.

Sorry that wasnt clear. You asked which political party called women dinosaurs well it was David Lammy, and said we were hoarding rights. It didnt go down well.

GillT57

Getting back to the MP in question; If I lived in his constituency I wouldn't vote for him because of his dodgy and nasty business, his lack of responsibility to his constituents, his lack of consideration for his family, and because he is a Tory. His sexual habits and tastes, as long as they are legal, do not enter into my consideration. So, although I don't have the luxury of a meaningful vote due to living in a very safe Tory seat; would I vote for a Labour/LibDem/Green candidate if I thought they were a better prospect for all of society but were unable to convince me of their stance on TG rights? Yes, because the rights of everyone to a decent standard of living, a safe place to live, a functioning NHS and educations system, clean water would over ride any concerns I may have about the definition of a woman. Frankly, someone who cannot feed their children or keep them warm probably doesn't give a flying fig for whether a trans person 'feels included and comfortable'.

Sorry to divert again GillT57, but I had to answer what has been said about me. I think your post is excellent, BTW

I am saying that everyone who disagrees with you is not speaking with one voice, and suggesting that you stop suggesting otherwise. There are others involved in this debate, and not all answers are directed at you personally.
The irony in this paragraph is overwhelming.

If you want to make it clear that you are speaking only about transphobes, you could say so.
How? Big flashing letters? It seems that’s the only way some people will understand that this is what I’ve been doing since about 8am this morning.

It wasn't a general question - you even followed it with 'you don't have to answer. Just be aware what the silence implies', with its dark suggestions of complicity with nefarious agendas, and you certainly appeared to be pressing her for an answer.
I’m sorry. I’m going to laugh now.

And since you are badgering me for what I think, I’ll tell you that I vote for parties that have the closest set of priorities to mine. I don’t ascribe nefarious agendas to parties that have some differences from me. I look at the entirely of their policies. I don’t make fantastical extrapolations about their policies that make me look like I’m paranoid.

David Lammy is the dinosaur quote.

Getting back to the MP in question; If I lived in his constituency I wouldn't vote for him because of his dodgy and nasty business, his lack of responsibility to his constituents, his lack of consideration for his family, and because he is a Tory. His sexual habits and tastes, as long as they are legal, do not enter into my consideration. So, although I don't have the luxury of a meaningful vote due to living in a very safe Tory seat; would I vote for a Labour/LibDem/Green candidate if I thought they were a better prospect for all of society but were unable to convince me of their stance on TG rights? Yes, because the rights of everyone to a decent standard of living, a safe place to live, a functioning NHS and educations system, clean water would over ride any concerns I may have about the definition of a woman. Frankly, someone who cannot feed their children or keep them warm probably doesn't give a flying fig for whether a trans person 'feels included and comfortable'.

Oh, the literalness.

(Is that a word?)

Anyway. Can you send me some links please to the parties that call women bigots and dinosaurs and have no interest in their rights? Made up stuff, paranoia and assumptions doesn't count.

While you're doing that, I'll go and find the posts, the actual real posts from actual real people, that are bigoted about trans people. (Actually, I won't. You'll have to trust me on that.)

Rosie51

^So my questing is valid; does that take priority over everything else?^ For most, probably not. In combination with any other concerns they may have it could be a tipping point.

Theoretical question. Why should any woman vote for any party that can't define what a woman is and has no interest in securing her rights or protections, and furthermore describes her as a bigot, dinosaur and worse for thinking they should view her concerns as valid? You don't have to answer but...............

Well actually that's a very good question. There is no doubt that the majority of legislation benefitting women has been passed by Labour governments, yet some still persist in voting Tory. There is no doubt that women suffer most from the low pay and insecure employment offered by zero hours contracts yet some women still vote Tory.
There is no doubt that the Labour party has the highest number of women MPs and they now make up more than 50% of the MPs. Yet some women persist in voting Tory.
You do wonder in the face of such obvious bias why any woman would.

I'm not claiming victimhood - not at all, and nor am I going to fall for your 'all about you' line ?.

I am saying that everyone who disagrees with you is not speaking with one voice, and suggesting that you stop suggesting otherwise. There are others involved in this debate, and not all answers are directed at you personally.

I repeat - I speak for myself in order to avoid suggesting that there is some sort of party line on this issue, as was suggested recently when two posters said opposing (or possibly contradictory) things and both were asked to explain themselves. 'Get your answers straight', wasn't it?

If you want to make it clear that you are speaking only about transphobes, you could say so. You are flitting between personal comments/questions and denial that you mean them to be personal. You asked Rosie a direct question, for example:
If someone won't vote for a party who they say doesn't know what a woman is, will they then vote for a party that says they do know what a woman is but sorry, we're going to sell off the NHS? as though she could possibly know the answer, and then played confused when she pointed out that she didn't know, and neither did you.

It wasn't a general question - you even followed it with 'you don't have to answer. Just be aware what the silence implies', with its dark suggestions of complicity with nefarious agendas, and you certainly appeared to be pressing her for an answer.

What do you think? Are you happy to vote for a party that would sell out women's rights to informed consent about who is touching them, their rights to safe spaces, and to single-sex categories in research, data and policies? Where do those things fit in your priorities? What if the party you support has views that conflict with your views on these issues but are in line with your thoughts on other things?

You are happy to ask others these questions. Are you willing to share your own views?

Its extreme and its exaggerated. so? It's a theoretical question about theoretical parties. I note you don't answer the question, why should women vote for them?