War crimes in Ukraine

My brother was, in the early stages of the invasion, in direct contact with a friend in Ukraine who worked for a church. He was praying with some captured Russian soldiers. One was a 16 year old on a" try before you buy" weekend with the Russian army..had no idea he was to be used as fodder on a front line & was just crying to go home to his mum. Suspect he won't be the only conned conscript.

silverlining48

In every war sexual and other violence is used by any army of any nationality. Twas ever thus. Sad but true. It’s naive to think otherwise.

I agree silverlining and its very sad. I do wonder how much we read and see about both sides is propaganda.

PECS

My brother was, in the early stages of the invasion, in direct contact with a friend in Ukraine who worked for a church. He was praying with some captured Russian soldiers. One was a 16 year old on a" try before you buy" weekend with the Russian army..had no idea he was to be used as fodder on a front line & was just crying to go home to his mum. Suspect he won't be the only conned conscript.

That's sad PECS - I bet he's not the only child to have been conned like that.

I have read similar reports PECS this war is unnecessary and so very cruel.

sodapop

silverlining48

In every war sexual and other violence is used by any army of any nationality. Twas ever thus. Sad but true. It’s naive to think otherwise.

I agree silverlining and its very sad. I do wonder how much we read and see about both sides is propaganda.

Yes, and saying so is by no means intended as an insult to all service people.

Look at Belfast. Or Iraq.

I'm not saying that all soldiers would rape and pillage, but that some would, and this is true of all nationalities.

The consequences of these reports are going to be very long lasting for the Russians, even China is not going to condone this kind of behavior, it is also going to galvanize Ukrainian resistance long term.

I've found an article about the treatment of conscripts in the Russian army. It doesn't make nice reading.

www.vice.com/en/article/gqdx44/full-v13n4

The report from the Ukrainian paediatrician having to treat a group of girls, the oldest of which was 10, that had been raped so badly their perineums had been completely split between vagina and anus. That has been on my mind all day, sorry for putting it in yours too, but how on earth has Russia managed to dehumanise its forces to that extent.

Maizie that article is almost unbelievable, I feel sick after reading it. It does illuminate how the Russian forces are able to be so cruel. I’ve read a fair bit about WW2 and the Russians were the most feared by the Germans and indeed by all the populations all the way through from Russia to Germany. No one in Europe wanted to be liberated by the Russians. Many people ran ahead of them to get to the west to avoid them including our next door neighbours when I was a child. They were from Ukraine and had fled the country as the Russians advanced, eventually ending up in England. My parents were very friendly with them and we socialised a lot with them. I played with their child who was the same age as myself. So it seems that the Russians have always been brutal.

B9exchange that incident made me cry. Thinking of those poor little girls so brutally abused is sickening.

It is all unreadable and I read as little of it as possible. All I can do is my small bit: donations - both financial and in goods, being on Homes for Ukraine list. What else can we do? I know it is grim and do not feel that reading any more of it will help anyone. There is no more I can do.

You are right Luckygirl that there is little we can do beyond contributing to charities for Ukraine and if we have available space, offering a home to some of the refugees. However I think we have a duty to keep ourselves informed about the war crimes that are being committed because the world (which is us) need to be aware as this horrible situation unfolds, so that when the inevitable trials and sanctions take place, we will know who is guilty and what they did.

There was an interview with Maria Butina of the Russian Duma on HARDtalk. On iPlayer now.
She insists that the Nazis are responsible for the atrocities in Ukraine as Russian soldiers would never harm civilians.
This is the woman who made the law that has imprisoned 14000 Russians who were against the war.
She was a former journalist who spoke out for free speech!!
This is worth watching although HARDtalk is a hard watch. Very frustrating.

The stealth use of drugs - amphetamines, steroids, psychedelics, heroin, cocaine - on the militaries of many conflicts is a little known, at least it was to me, factor in the dehumanisation of troops. This is NOT an excuse for appalling, inhuman behaviour, rather a possible added factor as to the why of humans turning into monsters.
It's beyond my understanding that someone has actually ordered this with their endgame being horror upon horror.

I do keep up on it all, as I have a Ukranian friend and I hear from her. I just don't listen to the news any more than the headlines. It just feels as thought he world is mad - why would people be so cruel? Why does it never change? Is it just men?

"Plus ça change". If you wondered why the Germans turned their weapons policy on its head recently my guess is it's simply fear of the Russians.

The fear in Germany of Russian troops is left over from the war when Russia walked into Germany and agreement was made to give them East Germany. The stories coming out of Germany at that time were ... I actually don't know how to describe them.

We should have remembered the scorpion in the scorpion and the frog. People, parties - and nations - do not change their nature. We are seeing this around the world. I have to admit I find it very hard to absorb that this has happened during our lifetime.

the article detailing the atrocities suffered by Russian army conscripts backs up something I heard Frank Gardener say a week or so ago. He said that the British Army runs on its NCOs, its corporals and sergeants who have the trust of their soldiers, and don't demand anything of them that they are not prepared to do themselves, whereas the NCOs of the Russian army are loathed and feared, especially by conscripts.

Luckygirl3 asks Is it just men?

This is a question that has been in my mind for a while.

We know that women have the capacity to be cruel but would they go to these extremes?

It's always men who have gone to war and devised more and more horrific means to kill and maim in their fellow humans, but women have egged them on. Is it just our lack of physical strength that holds us back? Or our powerlessness in the face of men's violence?

There are other types of cruelty which are used by women.

Is it just men?

There were apparently some 3,500 female guards working in concentration camps in Nazi Germany. Irma Grese is possibly the most well known. Some were executed for their crimes after the war. Ravensbruck was staffed entirely by women.
There are some infamous female murderers such as Myra Hindley and Rose West. Many mothers have been convicted of violence and the murder of their own children, or of allowing their partner to murder their children.
We are seeing increased numbers of young women being convicted of violence towards girls or other people. These crimes are often committed in gangs.
So no, it’s not just men, but men do commit more crimes of violence and more war crimes.

Not sure what is meant by women egging men on to commit violent acts. I would not agree with that. Obviously there are some evil women but most are not .
Men in groups/ gangs seem to egg each other on and it is rare, and brave, for a man to call up bad behaviour. We have this problem now with sexism and are calling on men to speak up when behaviour towards women and girls is inappropriate. Do they? Not sure they do, so it goes on.
The Russians have always been feared and their behaviour during and after ww2 was terrible but the allies did not do cover themselves in glory either by their treatment towards the starved local population, in particular the young women and girls. I know, my mum was there. I was too, but too young to understand.
War is a terrible thing and it’s the ordinary people who always suffer.

As others have said, the Russian military has always been feared. Brutality and rape as a weapon of war ever present.
Yes atrocities happen in war or armed conflict but some armies encourage them

I heard on the news a little while ago that the Russians are told that these people were killed by the Ukrainians themselves - for opposing the Russian invasion.

I’m afraid it’s probably true that many believe what they’re told.
And presumably anyone who doesn’t - who knows how many? - is too afraid to say so, for fear of being imprisoned/beaten up/tortured.

It is hard to comprehend that just about 6 weeks ago, the people of Ukraine were going about their lives such as we do; going to work, meeting friends, popping out for a coffee, arguing, laughing, having a moan. Then in these few short weeks they are living in a cellar, cat in a carrier, suitcase with what they can grab, no food, no water, no medication, no sanitary facilities. No knowing where they will be in a few days time.

Not sure what is meant by women egging men on to commit violent acts.

I was thinking of things like the women giving white feathers to non combatant men in WW1.