The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

trisher

Mollygo

Trans people must be able to understand when their rights are infringed, and to be able to take appropriate action.

And when these rights conflict with or override the rights of natal females, trisher, your position is . . . ?

Give me one example of when a transwoman's rights conflict or override mine and I'll answer that but as she is a woman and so am I I can't see it applies.

If I was to substitute any other sort of woman, black woman, working class woman, for transwoman do they have problems with my rights and theirs? (I will acknowledge that this was one of the reasons black women were denied rights for so long because some white women thought it would undermine them)

trisher

Girl Guiding and most other youth organisations are fading away because no one wants to volunteer as leaders and organisers any more. It's partly the result of over worked parents and partly unruly kids (if people don't want to teach them and get paid for it why would anyone want to do it for nothing?). I've volunteered for two such organisations in my time and it isn't easy coping with the red tape and the parents.
So I'm not surprised any organisation is taking on dodgy people and they always have done.
It's nothing new and the demise has little to do with trans ideology. You'll find that Rainbows, Brownies and Cubs prosper to a certain extent but provision for older children falls off.

Can I just remind you of the UN Free&Equal advice about transgender issues
No 3 of the Media advice
Do not propagate negative and harmful stereotypes about trans people.
Which is actually all these threads are.
www.unfe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UNFE-Transgender.pdf

When you say that there have always been dodgy types in the Scouting movement, trisher, you are, of course, right - and the vast majority haven't been trans.

They have, OTOH, pretty much all been men, and whilst there is no excuse for men abusing boys, at least parents of girls knew that when they sent their daughters off to camp they would be in tents with other girls, and looked after by women. Rogue trans leaders who actually slept in tents with girls would be extremely rare (if nothing else, I'm sure that other leaders would have the sense to police it, regardless of accusations of transphobia), and there is no reason to assume that genuine transpeople are any more likely to be abusive than anyone else.

However, allowing 15 year old boys (however they identify) to share tents with 15 year old girls is fraught with danger. It's not boyphobic to know that, is it? It would be a massive failure of safeguarding to let it happen, and I'm not even suggesting that the boys would take advantage of the girls - they are perfectly capable of colluding with them. It could be argued that it is up to them, and if sex is going to happen it would happen anyway etc, but the fact remains that 15 year olds are legally unable to consent, and entitled by law to protection from themselves and others, and parents (of boys as well as girls) are entitled to know that all reasonable precautions will be taken by adults in loco parentis to ensure that it doesn't happen.

As for the reasons why leaders are leaving and others not coming forward - the ones you suggest may well be true (I would be surprised if they are not), but what evidence do you have that 'it has nothing to do with trans ideology'? My friend felt that (on top of the things you say and reasons of her own) it was the last straw. One person, maybe, but how do you know she was alone in the reason for her decision?

Mollygo

Trans people must be able to understand when their rights are infringed, and to be able to take appropriate action.

And when these rights conflict with or override the rights of natal females, trisher, your position is . . . ?

Give me one example of when a transwoman's rights conflict or override mine and I'll answer that but as she is a woman and so am I I can't see it applies.

Trans people must be able to understand when their rights are infringed, and to be able to take appropriate action.

And when these rights conflict with or override the rights of natal females, trisher, your position is . . . ?

They are probably carrying over the macho attitude that "a redblooded male is always willing to have sex with any woman he meets" to include lesbians being always willing to have sex with any woman they meet. The same attitude made men avoid being alone with someone suspected of being gay as they believed they were certain to have to repel unwanted advances.

Personal preference is still operative - difficult as they may find it to believe, the most gorgeous trans woman may not be attractive to the lesbian they fancy.

As for lesbians, I'm not an expert, but the few I've known didn't actually want anyone with a penis....?
But lesbians are women, so way down in the pecking order compared to transwomen, whose cries of ‘I’m a woman’ don’t mean that they are willing to give up the advantages of being male. The sort of man who thinks that any woman who doesn’t fancy him must be gay is extending that to ‘must be a TERF’ when he’s having a ‘girl day’. Their socialisation isn’t altered by their transition, is it?

Girl Guiding and most other youth organisations are fading away because no one wants to volunteer as leaders and organisers any more. It's partly the result of over worked parents and partly unruly kids (if people don't want to teach them and get paid for it why would anyone want to do it for nothing?). I've volunteered for two such organisations in my time and it isn't easy coping with the red tape and the parents.
So I'm not surprised any organisation is taking on dodgy people and they always have done.
It's nothing new and the demise has little to do with trans ideology. You'll find that Rainbows, Brownies and Cubs prosper to a certain extent but provision for older children falls off.

Can I just remind you of the UN Free&Equal advice about transgender issues
No 3 of the Media advice
Do not propagate negative and harmful stereotypes about trans people.
Which is actually all these threads are.
www.unfe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UNFE-Transgender.pdf

Mollygo

DL, agreed.

The immense harm done to public perception of all trans people by the actions of a few trans and their allies seems to be ignored by those pushing the “trans rights override AHF rights” agenda.

How many times have we been told on here that trans-have existed for years, allowed to live their lives in peace, unnoticed.
How much do all those trans who lived unchallenged wish a spotlight had not been trained on them by the actions of a few?

But now there are those trans and their allies who decided
that women can mean whatever they want,
that cheating is OK if it helps you win
that females have no rights if males want them
that saying you’re a “woman” means you have to be accepted as female or those who refuse to accept that are homophobic

They seem proud of the harm they have done to so many groups in society, not just to AHF.
E.g. proud that TW can insist that lesbians, who have fought their own battles for peaceful existence, must have sex with them because TW are women?

Well, I must admit that much of this TW rights stuff went straight over my head until recently. I assumed it was yet another "hashtag cause" only supported by a few screechy people.

I was watching some sort of demo on TV (organised by biological women), and there were a group of TWs and supporters opposing it.

One person, with a beard, wearing a dress etc., was at the front, waving a placed, screaming "I am an effing woman etc"....and I thought 'only in your head mate', ?

But, publicity is increasing and more and more biological women are becoming aware of what's going on. Politicians are now getting worried about it and faffing around wondering what to do and say for most votes lol

As for lesbians, I'm not an expert, but the few I've known didn't actually want anyone with a penis....?

The problem is they don't accept that they have damaged the "public perception of all trans people" that's what the rest of us are being accused of and not just here on GN.

They don't seem to care that rather than liberating the trans community, they are doing the complete opposite.

'There's none so blind as those who cannot see' springs to mind.

Though TW are only women in the 2004 sense. Biology still overrides vocabulary.

DL, agreed.

The immense harm done to public perception of all trans people by the actions of a few trans and their allies seems to be ignored by those pushing the “trans rights override AHF rights” agenda.

How many times have we been told on here that trans-have existed for years, allowed to live their lives in peace, unnoticed.
How much do all those trans who lived unchallenged wish a spotlight had not been trained on them by the actions of a few?

But now there are those trans and their allies who decided
that women can mean whatever they want,
that cheating is OK if it helps you win
that females have no rights if males want them
that saying you’re a “woman” means you have to be accepted as female or those who refuse to accept that are homophobic

They seem proud of the harm they have done to so many groups in society, not just to AHF.
E.g. proud that TW can insist that lesbians, who have fought their own battles for peaceful existence, must have sex with them because TW are women?

I've seen/heard some Stonewall reps, TWs and their supporters on TV etc, on occasion.

They all seem to support the view that TW are women, in every sense of the word. Never mind how they started out in life, they are women now.

So, surely, if they hold that view, none of them can possibly support exemptions, which means excluding some "women" from certain places.?

That would mean that they do think TW are fully women, but are ok with a sort of "segregation" policy, where some women can go to places others can't.

If they think TWs are women, you must surely think that they can go and use wherever any other woman can go to and use.

The only people that should be supporting exemptions, and wanting to retain certain spaces, exclusively for biological women, are those, like me, who think it's fine to self identify as whatever they choose - but that they are not suddenly women, (in the full sense of the word), just because they say there are.

On that basis, TWs should be excluded from certain spaces.

DiamondLily

*Chewbacca*....good news that that ghastly family "sex show" has been cancelled.

I can't imagine who thought that would ever be a good idea, and I cannot see that too many parents would have taken young children to it.?

Nothing to do with who might have been attending, as one biological sex, identifying as whatever - just not an appropriate show/children's day out. In my view.

And, good news that common sense seems to have finally been applied with the GG situation.?

It’s a huge relief about that show being cancelled. Imagine having to deal in school with the sort of language or behaviour that children who had seen it began to use. Safeguarding flags would have been raised, parents questioned, the media involved-although that’s probably publicity that would have delighted the producers.

The good news us that it has raised awareness of the sort of thing that is creeping into society. The next group-and people are sick enough for there to be another attempt, will hopefully be identified and stopped sooner.

Also good news about the GG situation. It’s incredible how it was allowed to go on for so long under the heading of “inclusion”.

VS Engage? Giving the same non-answer isn’t engaging, but I understand your unwillingness to give an unequivocal answer. In your position I’d probably feel the same.

Yes but I am happy with things the way they are..

If any changes are planned I will discuss the pros and cons then

Not really interested in engaging with some of these comments

Chewbacca....good news that that ghastly family "sex show" has been cancelled.

I can't imagine who thought that would ever be a good idea, and I cannot see that too many parents would have taken young children to it.?

Nothing to do with who might have been attending, as one biological sex, identifying as whatever - just not an appropriate show/children's day out. In my view.

And, good news that common sense seems to have finally been applied with the GG situation.?

VS, your answer isn’t an answer. It’s a response from someone afraid to give an unequivocal answer.
Let me recommend Ziggy Cups flat-fit design. I’ve read they’re good for fence sitters.

From what I've read (and I don't wish to see most of the searches) that's a very wise decision Chewbacca. [smile} I'm off to my bed, goodnight all.

No Rosie51 I've only shared what's easily available in the public domain.

I note you haven't shared the most salacious posts about that individual. Yes I agree, any parent/guardian who wasn't at the least concerned/alarmed at this display would certainly concern me. Be as 'inclusive' and 'accepting' as you like, but when it comes to safeguarding you have to be on the side of 'overcautious' rather than 'undercautious'

As far as I know, when the objections to that particular transwoman who posted rather lewd twitter posts became widespread they were removed from the Commissioner post

Depends on who you listen to Rosie51! Some say they were pushed, some say they jumped! What was staggering, was the GG's response to all the alarmed parents who, having seen the photographs of mock assault rifles, whips and dominatrix gear on social media pages, quite rightly contacted the GG to ask about their safeguarding rules. Several of those parents were apparently referred to the police for transphobia and malicious communications. Why would any parent not be alarmed if they were entrusting their daughter to the care of someone/anyone who puts this on their social media?

Chewbacca

^Two of our local Guiding groups have closed within the past year.^

Same around here too. The official reason given for was "temporarily closing due to covid" but neither group has reopened because their numbers had fallen so significantly and the group leaders had already expressed their concerns about safeguarding. The Guiding Association, as a whole, has lost 35% of its membership since 2019. wonder why.......

'tis a mystery........ to those with less than two braincells to rub together!

Two of our local Guiding groups have closed within the past year.

Same around here too. The official reason given for was "temporarily closing due to covid" but neither group has reopened because their numbers had fallen so significantly and the group leaders had already expressed their concerns about safeguarding. The Guiding Association, as a whole, has lost 35% of its membership since 2019. wonder why.......

Chewbacca

They've asked Katie Alcock if she'd like to go back Doodledog but somehow, I don't think she will! They've handled it all so badly and their membership has taken quite a battering since it became public that they'd allowed a 58 year old bus driving, weapon toting, dominatrix, trans woman to become a Commissioner for GG, Brownies and Rainbows. But, at least they've learnt that sex and gender are different.

As far as I know, when the objections to that particular transwoman who posted rather lewd twitter posts became widespread they were removed from the Commissioner post. You do wonder if they are even acquainted with safeguarding at the lowest level.

Doodledog

The Guiding thing is great news. All the research shows that single sex groups benefit girls, and Girl Guides was somewhere that girls could learn and play without a male gaze on them during their teenage years.

A friend of mine was a Guide Leader for years, and gave up when the new regulations came in. I doubt she'll go back now, but it's a shame that people like her have felt unable to keep it up - they were always short of volunteers when my friend was doing it.

Unfortunately I don't think GG have actually backtracked on their trans ideology, but at least they will spell it out that your 14 year old daughter might be sharing a dorm with a 14 year old biologically intact male who identifies as a girl. I don't think they have any intention of actually confirming this will be the case to any specific group.
My friend gave up as a Guide Leader for exactly the same reason, and I remember my sons' Scout Leader saying if he ever had to admit girls he was off..... and he was as soon as it started. Such a shame, and that's in part why there are groups shutting all over the country. Two of our local Guiding groups have closed within the past year. Who'd want to be a leader with those sort of safeguarding concerns?