The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Doodledog

*Not all males are part of the patriarchy- well of course they aren't but the patriarchy is undoubtedly all male.*
No, there are women who have internalised the belief that men are 'natural leaders' or breadwinners, and perpetuate the patriarchy. They bring up their daughters to feel the same, and encourage their sons in the belief that men are superior.

And the way the patriarchy operates is to enourage discrimination and division. Which is exactly what is being attempted by some of the posters on this thread.
Which posters, and how are they doing this? It's impossible to tell whether or not I agree with you when you post vagaries such as this.

They use the usual patriarchal tools of denigration, dismissal and personal abuse to support what are undoubtedly the beliefs that have underpinned attitudes towards transpeople for centuries.
Without knowing who 'they' are, and without examples, it's difficult to argue (which is, I suspect, the point of the vagueness), but if you don't think your 'stuck in the 70s' post was denigrating, dismissive and personal, I'm not sure how you can spot those things anywhere else. I don't know anything about centuries-old attitudes to transpeople, but would be interested to see any links you have? In what way are they linked to modern-day patriarchy?

They then repackage them and claim they are feminist. When doing so they attempt to belittle and denigrate any woman who attempts to debate with them. And this is feminism????
No idea, as I've now lost the thread of your post altogether. Who is repackaging what? I do know that many attempts have been made to belittle and denigrate me, and others who don't believe that magic words can change science, but I'm guessing that whatever you mean it is not being said in our support?

You are confused about the patriarchy- which makes the rules and enforces them . And women who are educated and indoctrinated in the practice of patriarchy and continue to apply the rules they have been taught. But it's understandable. But blaming the women isn't feminist.

I'm not going to list names. It is part of self enlightenment to look at your own statements and consider them.

Personal denigration is the name calling- mysoginistic, always putting men first etc

If you can post the terms I have used which denigrate or belittle you please do so.

I'm an ally to lots of people as an intersectional femisist

I'm a trans ally

Chewbacca

^ILoveCheese There are not any trans activists here^

Whaaat? You've spent the last 12 months drilling in to us that you're a TRA allie! Have you suddenly defected?

You evidently don't know the difference between a TRA and an intersectional feminist.

Ilovecheeseif you constantly post things which link transwomen with rape or sex crimes you are denigrating them. (Imagine if somone was to do this about all men because some are rapists and paedophiles, there would be an outcry of "not my son/brother/husband). You also give people who are transphobic ammunition and justification for trans attacks.
A man holding a placard with 'darlin Many gay men call women and men this.
Because men who are transactivists are abusive how is that anything to do with intersectional feminists? Supporting transrights is just the same as supporting any other rights and intersectional feminists recognise those rights.

ILoveCheese There are not any trans activists here

Whaaat? You've spent the last 12 months drilling in to us that you're a TRA allie! Have you suddenly defected?

Not all males are part of the patriarchy- well of course they aren't but the patriarchy is undoubtedly all male.
No, there are women who have internalised the belief that men are 'natural leaders' or breadwinners, and perpetuate the patriarchy. They bring up their daughters to feel the same, and encourage their sons in the belief that men are superior.

And the way the patriarchy operates is to enourage discrimination and division. Which is exactly what is being attempted by some of the posters on this thread.
Which posters, and how are they doing this? It's impossible to tell whether or not I agree with you when you post vagaries such as this.

They use the usual patriarchal tools of denigration, dismissal and personal abuse to support what are undoubtedly the beliefs that have underpinned attitudes towards transpeople for centuries.
Without knowing who 'they' are, and without examples, it's difficult to argue (which is, I suspect, the point of the vagueness), but if you don't think your 'stuck in the 70s' post was denigrating, dismissive and personal, I'm not sure how you can spot those things anywhere else. I don't know anything about centuries-old attitudes to transpeople, but would be interested to see any links you have? In what way are they linked to modern-day patriarchy?

They then repackage them and claim they are feminist. When doing so they attempt to belittle and denigrate any woman who attempts to debate with them. And this is feminism????
No idea, as I've now lost the thread of your post altogether. Who is repackaging what? I do know that many attempts have been made to belittle and denigrate me, and others who don't believe that magic words can change science, but I'm guessing that whatever you mean it is not being said in our support?

Ilovecheese

There are not any trans activists here....

trisher I completely agree...

No it's not feminism.

Femisim is not finding equality by becoming equally as abusive is the men we have fought all these years.

Equality is not looking for power and control over others by any means.

Ew.

Oh, and I don't think I have insulted anyone or twisted any words.
I agree with Trisher on a number of other subjects, but not this one.

Trisher you say
"So the male point of view has always been that anyone presenting or trying to become a different gender has to be castigated, isolated, controlled and discriminated against because they present a threat to the patriarchal society we live in. How then is it feminist to continue to treat transpeople in the same way?"

But who is doing that? Where is that happening?
I don't think that not wanting to get undressed in front of someone equates to isolation, control or discrimination.

It looks to me that it is the so called transactivists who are bullying and trying to control.
A recent demonstration by transactivists included a man holding a placard which read "pronouns darlin' or your pronouns will be was/were"
That is threatening and the use of "darlin'" makes it pretty clear that it was addressed to women.
What was "no debate" but a wish to control speech?

No transactivists ever say "let's talk about this and try and find a way to accomodate all points of view, they just bully and threaten.
As they did outside the women's meeting in Manchester when refugee women were trying to explain how they felt, big group of men outside trying to drown out their voices and shut them up.
it just doesn't look to me that it is the "gender critical" of what ever age that are the bullies.

Yes, Chewbacca, and instilling the belief that being kind (ie submissive) will bring reward (maybe not in this life but 'in the end') has been used to pacify the downtrodden the world over.

JK Rowling not UK damned typis

If discussion comes from a place of deliberately demonising or dehumanising another person in order to silence them because they are speaking sense or truth you aren't ready to accept then the argument is lost already.

A bit like what the TRAs and their allies have done to UK Rowling, Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater et al do you mean? That kind of dehumanizing, demonising and silencing? Or were you speaking personally?

No, the patriarchal view (which is not necessarily the view of all males, and can be held by women, too) is that the male view is more important, and this is what leads to the belief that men can tell women what women should be, how we should 'present' (cf India Willoughby's thoughts on the 'lady on the right' being less of a woman than IW is), and that if they wish to impost themselves on us by incantations of magic words they have the right to do so. They impose this belief by the violence of TRAs and the 'be kind and shut up' manipulation of their handmaidens.

Not all males are part of the patriarchy- well of course they aren't but the patriarchy is undoubtedly all male. And the way the patriarchy operates is to enourage discrimination and division. Which is exactly what is being attempted by some of the posters on this thread.
They use the usual patriarchal tools of denigration, dismissal and personal abuse to support what are undoubtedly the beliefs that have underpinned attitudes towards transpeople for centuries. They then repackage them and claim they are feminist. When doing so they attempt to belittle and denigrate any woman who attempts to debate with them. And this is feminism????

We believe women's rights are human rights, plain and simple. That means racial justice, LGBTQ rights, rights for disabled people and religious freedom. We will continue the fight against hatred however that's expressed

The more I read that statement, the more it sounds like a Stepford Wives brainwashing mantra! Repeat after me, with a glassy eyed stare: "We will always be kind, considerate and pliable to our menfolk. Our menfolk are superior beings who must be honoured, respected and obeyed at all times. All hail the menfolk!"

Chewbacca

^I'm quoting my group discription^ The Green Party manifesto by any chance?

No, it's a group for intersectional feminists.

The thing is that it's really hard to discriminate against or otherwise harm people when you actually listen to them and get to know them as real genuine people.

If discussion comes from a place of deliberately demonising or dehumanising another person in order to silence them because they are speaking sense or truth you aren't ready to accept then the argument is lost already.

Historically it has always been that way and it's always overcome in the end.

trisher

^"Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes. Feminism incorporates the position that societies prioritize the male point of view, and that women are treated unjustly within those societies".^ Wikipedia

So the male point of view has always been that anyone presenting or trying to become a different gender has to be castigated, isolated, controlled and discriminated against because they present a threat to the patriarchal society we live in. How then is it feminist to continue to treat transpeople in the same way?

No, the patriarchal view (which is not necessarily the view of all males, and can be held by women, too) is that the male view is more important, and this is what leads to the belief that men can tell women what women should be, how we should 'present' (cf India Willoughby's thoughts on the 'lady on the right' being less of a woman than IW is), and that if they wish to impost themselves on us by incantations of magic words they have the right to do so. They impose this belief by the violence of TRAs and the 'be kind and shut up' manipulation of their handmaidens.

I'm quoting my group discription The Green Party manifesto by any chance?

?????

It's beautiful actually, the aim is to share stories, just life and love affirming stories that celebrate women's (all women's) achievements

Also, I don't have the behaviours you misrepresent me as having by engaging in spectacular mental gymnastics

So I'm not worried about what you think

That’s frightening . . . if it’s true.
Three million people all behaving like you .

I'm quoting my group discription, so yes everyone in it agrees with that, about 3 million members so far have all agreed to that... I have mentioned it before

VioletSky

We believe women's rights are human rights, plain and simple. That means racial justice, LGBTQ rights, rights for disabled people and religious freedom. We will continue the fight against hatred however that's expressed

VS it’s another me-me statement. Who do you include in “we”? You and trisher? You certainly don’t speak for all feminists, intersectional or not.
No. You believe in what you believe in and it certainly doesn’t include fairness to AHF, so why would what you believe be true about any of the other things you say?

Religious freedom-as long as it doesn’t interfere with mens rights to access female safe spaces or female spaces that allow women to practice their religions free from male presence?

Racial justice-where do you sit when AHF of different races are upset by the presence of males claiming to be female in medical situations including psychiatric wards? It isn’t just white females who find themselves in that position, but you would make them have to ask for a female medic instead of being able to expect one, and call them transphobic if they do.

Disabled rights? I’ve not seen any evidence either for or against your support of those, but I expect your provision would again be to the detriment of AHF.

Fighting against hatred? Hatred of those TW who, like Karen White injure women and are allowed to perpetrate their crimes again and again? Or hatred of the TRA who campaign for a system which supports opportunities for that to happen?

And, since the Lesbians have been subject to attacks by TW who think saying “I’m a woman” makes them magically female and therefore appealing to Lesbians.

Not sure your beliefs are anything except words.

"Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes. Feminism incorporates the position that societies prioritize the male point of view, and that women are treated unjustly within those societies". Wikipedia

So the male point of view has always been that anyone presenting or trying to become a different gender has to be castigated, isolated, controlled and discriminated against because they present a threat to the patriarchal society we live in. How then is it feminist to continue to treat transpeople in the same way?