The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

trisher
Transwomen identify as women so why would they ever try to take away rights from the group they feel they belong to?

Because some are doing that all the time. They've never asked our opinion or permission to join the group they feel they belong to, just told us their demands. What about the right of women to be in a single sex, free from penises, environment? And please don't come back with the law, which you often say is unenforceable, and if Stonewall get their way the single sex exemptions would be removed. Those women who would rather not compete against failed male athletes who can succeed against women, do they come under the transwomen's concern? Incidentally I've asked before do you endorse or condemn Stonewall wanting to get rid of single sex exemptions from the EA, but you've never yet answered.

How many times Mollygo your rights are protected by law.
How many times trisher do you sanction the repudiation of those rights by saying TW can access them fraudulently.

It’s clear you support males rather than females. What isn’t clear, is why.

What reasons have I read on GN in support of different views?
Difficult home life?
Bullying at school?
Toxic mother?
Secret desire to be a TM?

Feminists support females. Unlike feminists who need a qualifying word, they don’t refuse to support other groups, but when female rights are attacked and claimed by males, true feminists support females.

Again doodledog I agree with everything the act says and its examples of what constitutes direct or indirect discrimination so if that's not going to be respected the same way I respect the protections women rightfully deserve, or you will all have to carry on without me.

We either agree that all protected characteristics matter, comments to me show acceptance towards trans peoples rights and we continue discussion from a place of respect for each other or I'm not going to engage

trisher

Doodledog

Do they honestly need to provide male changing facilities in Monsoon? They don't sell menswear, and even though there is no reason why men shouldn't wear dresses (if they can find any in there to fit!) the numbers involved will hardly warrant having a separate cubicle. Monsoon use curtains as separators rather than 'walled' cubicles anyway, so it wouldn't even be a case of adding one to the existing row.

You don't know much about the size of teenage boys do you Doodledog? They generally come in somewhere between a 12 and a 14. They are usually very slim. Real muscle growth doesn't start until later (unless they are part of the sports elite who use various methods to build unnatural muscle development).
If you want men to wear dresses you ought at least to cater to them.

Having had four teenage boys I can certainly say all of mine had some typical male muscle development by age 18, and they had facial hair, pronounced Adam's apple etc and none were part of a sport elite.

What percentage of Monsoon's sale total would you estimate will be bought to be worn by young and older men? I'm assuming you count an 18 year old as an adult man given they are competent to start medicalised gender reassignment? Would less than 1% be reason to give equal precedence to male clientele?

Chewbacca

^Two women pregnant after having consensual sex with a transgender prisoner bothers you?^

Yes trisher it bothers me and it should bother you too. Genitally intact males should never be housed in a women's prison; the women in there are already extremely vulnerable in the first place and whether it was consensual or not, those women shouldn't have had to share tgeir prison estate with a sexually active male. You blame the parlous state of American prisons for this? You're kidding yourself trisher. Sexual assaults against female prisoners, by trans women, have already occurred in the UK, as you know very well. But I can easily document them all again for you again if you like? The more times it's broadcasted, the better.

And what about guards assaulting women? Doesn't that bother you Chewbacca why are you so concerned about two women who had sex that they probably enjoyed and not a culture which allows guards in full riot gear to beat up prisoners?

It seems to me it's desperation to bring in US prisons, probably because UK prisons are trying to sort what is a recent phenomena and you can't find any new cases.

Mollygo

*Transwomen identify as women so why would they ever try to take away rights from the group they feel they belong to?*

How ludicrous is your statement.

Haven’t you noticed trisher that it’s exactly what some transwomen are trying to do.

Transwoman believe they can fraudulently misrepresent themselves by turning up when a female has been asked for = taking away an AHF right to be attended by a natal female.

Demanding to be placed in female psychiatric wards = taking away the rights of AHF who are already traumatised to feel safe.
I could go on, but you know this anyway.

It doesn’t fit very well with the “caring for all“ that transactional feminists are supposed to do.

How many times Mollygo your rights are protected by law.
As see the title and OP on this thread.

Two women pregnant after having consensual sex with a transgender prisoner bothers you?

Yes trisher it bothers me and it should bother you too. Genitally intact males should never be housed in a women's prison; the women in there are already extremely vulnerable in the first place and whether it was consensual or not, those women shouldn't have had to share tgeir prison estate with a sexually active male. You blame the parlous state of American prisons for this? You're kidding yourself trisher. Sexual assaults against female prisoners, by trans women, have already occurred in the UK, as you know very well. But I can easily document them all again for you again if you like? The more times it's broadcasted, the better.

Chewbacca sorry I just rewatched that video and some of the guards are women, but of course women never behave badly towards other women do they?

trisher

By the way if anyone doesn't know Charlie's partner (also non-binary but descibed as 'more feminine') was left in a cubicle trying on dresses which was why Charlie was sitting outside. So not only discrimination but unequal discrimination. Monsoon don't have a leg to stand on.

Charlie's partner may also be non-binary and described as 'more feminine presenting' but the pertinent fact is what sex is Charlie's partner? Charlie is male sex no matter any variation in Charlie's head.

Chewbacca

^Real muscle growth doesn't start until later (unless they are part of the sports elite who use^ various methods to build unnatural muscle development).

Would those be the ones joining the women's swimming, cycling and running elite sports?

No those are the ones in the sports colleges which specialise in rugby and professional sports which require extreme body changes (if you haven't seen them you won't appreciate how different they are)

Transwomen identify as women so why would they ever try to take away rights from the group they feel they belong to?

How ludicrous is your statement.

Haven’t you noticed trisher that it’s exactly what some transwomen are trying to do.

Transwoman believe they can fraudulently misrepresent themselves by turning up when a female has been asked for = taking away an AHF right to be attended by a natal female.

Demanding to be placed in female psychiatric wards = taking away the rights of AHF who are already traumatised to feel safe.
I could go on, but you know this anyway.

It doesn’t fit very well with the “caring for all“ that transactional feminists are supposed to do.

Chewbacca

<Charlie undressed in a cubicle away from others and was> <subjected to the indignity of being misgendered, shouted> <at and ordered out of the changing rooms.>

Gosh, that's terrible trisher; you hadn't mentioned that you were in the shop at that time. But your eye witness account of the events that day don't seem to marry up with the other customers who were there or the shop assistant who, Charlie described as "a short, large afro-Caribbean lady with poorly drawn on eyebrows". He's a gem of inclusivity our Charlie isn't he? And he clearly has a problem in deciphering whether being asked to wait is the same thing as being refused to be served. So he's an entitled male too.

<Perhaps you should stop posting or reading all these> <accounts of perversion and abuse.>

Not a chance. In fact, here's another one for you:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10716417/Two-women-female-New-Jersey-prison-PREGNANT-trans-inmates.html

<The correctional facility began to house transgender women - including those that have yet to undergo gender reassignment surgery - last year.> So they were men after all. And I promise you, as soon as men stop abusing women and then scurrying to hide behind a dress to avoid the consequences, I'll stop posting about them. Until then, I'll publicise every single one that I come across.

Did you actually read that article Chewbacca or bother to watch the video.
Two women pregnant after having consensual sex with a transgender prisoner bothers you! But a video of a naked woman being beaten and punched by male guards in full riot gear is ignored. Well now I really know what the priority is here castigte the trans and bugger what happens to women who are abused by men.
The American prison system is a complete mess and has been for decades. Nothing to do with trans people.

Real muscle growth doesn't start until later (unless they are part of the sports elite who use various methods to build unnatural muscle development).

Would those be the ones joining the women's swimming, cycling and running elite sports?

Doodledog

Do they honestly need to provide male changing facilities in Monsoon? They don't sell menswear, and even though there is no reason why men shouldn't wear dresses (if they can find any in there to fit!) the numbers involved will hardly warrant having a separate cubicle. Monsoon use curtains as separators rather than 'walled' cubicles anyway, so it wouldn't even be a case of adding one to the existing row.

You don't know much about the size of teenage boys do you Doodledog? They generally come in somewhere between a 12 and a 14. They are usually very slim. Real muscle growth doesn't start until later (unless they are part of the sports elite who use various methods to build unnatural muscle development).
If you want men to wear dresses you ought at least to cater to them.

By the way if anyone doesn't know Charlie's partner (also non-binary but descibed as 'more feminine') was left in a cubicle trying on dresses which was why Charlie was sitting outside. So not only discrimination but unequal discrimination. Monsoon don't have a leg to stand on.

Honestly if you can't see how ludicrous posting about a Handmaid's Tale is on these threads all of Margaret Atwood's efforts have been in vain and I fully understand what Germain Greer meant about women being frightened of the wrong things
HT is a description of a far right religious take over where women's rights are destroyed by men.
Transwomen identify as women so why would they ever try to take away rights from the group they feel they belong to?
As I said before it's a small step from providing safe spaces for women to restricting women to those spaces. By all means let's protect women but let's not pretend transpeople are the real danger here.

Apologies to all posters up thread - can't cut and paste to acknowledge all excellent posts re. non-acceptance of being good girls, shutting up and doing as we're told.

Dogma, ideology and labels can only be applied and carried out if we allow them to be.
That's clearly NOT going to happen here.

Perhaps one cubicle at the end of the row with a more substantial door than just a curtain, labelled -

"Unisex cubicle. Male customers please use this one if you need to try on a garment, If it is not needed for a male customer, it can be used by a female one."

The changing room assistant could make sure that the door is closed on the male inside. That would prevent any show-and-tell.

If any friends were there to give an opinion on the clothes I would make them stay outside the whole changing rooms and wait for the buyer to emerge and display their choice - whether they were male or female. There is little enough space without adding a chorus line.

<Charlie undressed in a cubicle away from others and was> <subjected to the indignity of being misgendered, shouted> <at and ordered out of the changing rooms.>

Gosh, that's terrible trisher; you hadn't mentioned that you were in the shop at that time. But your eye witness account of the events that day don't seem to marry up with the other customers who were there or the shop assistant who, Charlie described as "a short, large afro-Caribbean lady with poorly drawn on eyebrows". He's a gem of inclusivity our Charlie isn't he? And he clearly has a problem in deciphering whether being asked to wait is the same thing as being refused to be served. So he's an entitled male too.

<Perhaps you should stop posting or reading all these> <accounts of perversion and abuse.>

Not a chance. In fact, here's another one for you:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10716417/Two-women-female-New-Jersey-prison-PREGNANT-trans-inmates.html

<The correctional facility began to house transgender women - including those that have yet to undergo gender reassignment surgery - last year.> So they were men after all. And I promise you, as soon as men stop abusing women and then scurrying to hide behind a dress to avoid the consequences, I'll stop posting about them. Until then, I'll publicise every single one that I come across.

So Charlie, who is shy and reserved and felt humiliated, tweeted about their experience on twitter and then spoke to the media. I'd rather pluck out my eyeballs than expose myself to such coverage, but then maybe I'm a little more 'shy and reserved' than Charlie. In a women's dress shop there would, until very recently, have been no need to label the changing room as female only. I don't think Burtons (do they still exist?) labelled their fitting rooms as men only. Of course Charlie's account is 100% accurate, they couldn't possibly be exaggerating or even lying about any aspect, no teenager ever did that ??
When I had a problem with the behaviour of an M&S manager I wrote to the store manager outlining my grievance. I didn't feel the need to tell the world. I got an apology and an assurance the issue was being dealt with. Who needs more?

Ilovecheese

So what should the ratio be of females who can be inconvenienced in order that one male should not have to wait a few minutes to do what he wants. I don't know how many Muslim females were in the changing area that Charlie wanted to inconvenience but it obviously wasn't enough that Charlie thought he might wait a little while until they had finished choosing clothes for their important festival. Perhaps it should be like in the handmaids tale where one commander equalled was it twenty five Martha's?

That's where we seem to be headed, ILC. Women are what men say we are, and they are women if they say they are. We have no right to space of our own, no right to agency over our bodies, or who touches or sees them, and no language to describe our own exclusive experiences.

And we have the Aunts ready and waiting to step up to keep us in line.

Do they honestly need to provide male changing facilities in Monsoon? They don't sell menswear, and even though there is no reason why men shouldn't wear dresses (if they can find any in there to fit!) the numbers involved will hardly warrant having a separate cubicle. Monsoon use curtains as separators rather than 'walled' cubicles anyway, so it wouldn't even be a case of adding one to the existing row.

So what should the ratio be of females who can be inconvenienced in order that one male should not have to wait a few minutes to do what he wants. I don't know how many Muslim females were in the changing area that Charlie wanted to inconvenience but it obviously wasn't enough that Charlie thought he might wait a little while until they had finished choosing clothes for their important festival. Perhaps it should be like in the handmaids tale where one commander equalled was it twenty five Martha's?

As I have said before they need to label the changing roons as sex segregated then those of the male sex can be excluded from a female space. Or if they dont believe in sex segregated spaces have mixed sex spaces although as I say many organisations who go for mixed sex change their mind.

Well, GN is a chat/discussion board (where we all post about things in which we are not involved), and Twitter is an online networking site. They are similar but different. The odds on the CEO of Monsoon picking up on a mention on here are fairly long ones, whereas most businesses have PR people monitoring Twitter and FB for mentions. But no, there is no reason why Charlie shouldn't post on there.

There is, IMO, a reason why a publicity stunt is a bad idea, though. For one thing, Monsoon was well within the law, (as I am as sure as I can be that Charlie will have known, as Trans Rights Rep for the Young Liberals or whatever his role is), and for another, the reactions on both 'sides' of this debate are likely to be very destructive to the lives of those who work there. People virtuously withdrawing their custom is only going to make a struggling company struggle more, and for what?