Sending U.K. refugees to Rawanda

Unlike the SNP boulder on yours ?

Urmstongran

And there you have it. Civil servants thinking they can pick and choose which policies they implement. The Home Secretary is often pilloried for not dealing with illegal immigration, but now we know why.

Cummings was right re The Civil Service.

Well, here, in response to your idiotic and predictable post, Ug, George Peretz C lays out the legal position of civil servants.

They are not refusing to implement the policy. They are refusing to carry any responsibility for having to implement despite its failure to meet the criteria (as outlined in the thread I'm posting). They are covering their backs, as they have every right to do.

We do not yet have a fascist dictatorship, though you, and maudi and other posters on here would welcome one with open arms, quite failing to recognise that the sort of things you would like to be implemented already are in Russia. Just look at what happens there and give your heads a good shake...

I digress

George Peretz QC

^A “ministerial direction” - as explained here by @instituteforgov
instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/ministerial-directions^
-is a formal instruction from a minister telling their department to proceed with a spending proposal, despite an objection from their permanent secretary. The Perm. Sec, as accounting officer (personally accountable to Parliament and especially @CommonsPAC) has a duty to seek such a direction if they think a spending proposal is irregular, improper, poor value for money, or infeasible.
The role of the accounting officer is a key part of the way in which Parliament, through the National Audit Office and @CommonsPAC, holds (on our behalf) ministers and Whitehall to account for spending what (as Conservatives used traditionally to remind us) is our money.
As the IFG paper notes, ministerial directions used to be rare. But they have become far more frequent under the current government.
It is of course right that it is Ministers and not civil servants decide, in the end, whether to proceed with a spending proposal.
But the news that a minister has had to overrule their Perm Sec on a major spending proposal, despite the Perm Sec’s view that it is improper, poor value for money, irregular or infeasible, should be cause for the ringing of alarm bells, not celebration bells.
It is not as if the Home Office is a nest of wooly liberals, desperate to prevent any policy designed to make life harder for refugees trying to reach the UK: nor, contrary to Lord Moylan’s odd suggestion, is there any evidence that it’s worried about its popularity on Twitter

(last bit refers to the tweet Peretz was responding to, which I haven't copied)

twitter.com/GeorgePeretzQC/status/1515217856870469632

I've mentioned "racist" regarding a post. And I'll mention it again if its relevant and true.

Whitewavemark2

Maudi

I forgot in my previous post, mention the racist card to stop debate.

It doesn’t stop debate it keeps it civilised and without hate

Has someone actually mentioned the "racist card"?

I live near a couple of places with very high Muslim populations and I have never seen a woman wearing a burkha. There are woman wearing the niqab occasionally but most women just wear modest clothing and a hijab.

No, you carry on Maudi. You carry on "debating", just like your peers.

Careful though, the chip on your shoulder is showing.

Maudi

I forgot in my previous post, mention the racist card to stop debate.

It doesn’t stop debate it keeps it civilised and without hate

volver

Sometimes, we get to a point where posts are so wicked, so racist, so bad, so disrespectful, that words aren't enough.

Today's the day.

I agree. I did think about reporting the last example but I think it should stay to show what is being done to our country.

I forgot in my previous post, mention the racist card to stop debate.

volver

Sometimes, we get to a point where posts are so wicked, so racist, so bad, so disrespectful, that words aren't enough.

Today's the day.

Yes.

True colours

Urmstongran

Burkhas galore for the women with trainers underneath, Men wear shalwar kameez, kurta, Pakistani Waistcoats. The shops are akin to market places with all manner of greengrocers, hardware and litter festooning the pavements. Driving through to Edgebaston I felt I’d been transported to Pakistan. You don’t see this up in the Highlands of Scotland or over in the Shires. I could not imagine living there, driving through it all was enough.

Yes shocking to be like me? To want my country of birth to reflect (mostly) the way of life I’ve always grown up with.

I like Muslims. I have medic friends who are. I’m just amazed by how much our cities in the Midlands have changed beyond all recognition.

Ask yourself.

Do Orthodox Jews live their own culture?

Do Hindus live their own culture

Do Buddhists live their own culture

Do Christian’s live their own culture

Do humanists live their own culture

My goodness that post takes the absolute biscuit.

There is a very short step between that attitude displayed in your post and the sort of hate we see displayed by the proud boys and white supremicists .

Maudi

*Urmstongran *
So, Labour, the Church, The UN don’t like Boris’ proposals? Okay.
What DO they propose instead?

Open borders let them all in.

I'll be interested to hear what sit on the fence Starmer has to say.

Aren't most people advocating that the government gets a grip and employs some efficiency? They could, if they chose, process asylum claims very quickly; the government has made a conscious decision to string these cases out. They could, if they chose, have a proper setup in France and process quickly there. They could, if they chose, and as they are doing with the Ukrainian refugees, allow these people to work while the applications are processed.

They could, if they chose, become a more effective, capably run machine of government instead of the inefficient, inadequate, incompetent one we have currently.

Sometimes, we get to a point where posts are so wicked, so racist, so bad, so disrespectful, that words aren't enough.

Today's the day.

Urmstongran

It’s not PC to say ‘committed suicide’ volver I thought you’d definitely be on that! No longer illegal. People usually say ‘took their own life’ these days. Or ‘death by suicide’.

Semantics I know but you’d pull anyone else for a faux pas like that.

Anyway ... alternatives anyone?

It's "not PC" to imprison people in camps full of huts on remote islands either.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/24/nauru-offshore-regime-to-cost-australian-taxpayers-nearly-220m-over-next-six-months

Anyway, as I said above, this thread is full of alternatives but none of them involves bullying our way around the world or being nasty to desperate people, so they don't get talked about by those who think that's the way to go about things, do they?

You can have a go at the Guardian as well now. Don't say I'm not good to you.

DaisyAnne

Maudi

09:34DaisyAnne

You are doing it now mentioning Germany and the Jews, this situation is nothing like that. The economic fit young men arriving in dinghies after pushing themselves to the front of the queue by paying the people smuggler gangs 3000 pounds or more to get here aren't fleeing wars or bombing they just fancy living in the UK, sod the poor buggers who can't pay, the genuine refugees, never mind the women and children they are leaving behind in supposed war torn countries, only a coward would leave their women and children and save themselves in my opinion. Some people must be very naive. Yes by all means welcome genuine refugees like the Ukrainian women and children who have left their men in Ukraine fighting for their country, I salute these men.

Why would we not mention "Germany and the Jews". It is the best and most recent example we have of the use of propaganda that is similar to that the Johnson government's are employing.

You said (removing the rhetoric) The economic fit young men ... aren't fleeing wars or bombing. What proof of this are you giving? So far I haven't seen anything other than what seems to be anger.

According to government figures that is not true in the majority of cases. A little less motivated reasoning and a few more facts would help.

There is zero evidence for maudi’s claims. Until the facts have been established - and they can only be established by questioning the asylum seekers you simply are talking nonsense.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

sarah murphy
@13sarahmurphy
·
2h
Come on UK. Are you happy with a party that tries to save its flagging arse by announcing an ugly plan to ship vulnerable asylum seekers out on a one-way ticket to Rwanda? Lawbreaking, corruption, inhumanity and expensive incompetence. Is that what you want from your PM and govt?

Maudi

09:34DaisyAnne

You are doing it now mentioning Germany and the Jews, this situation is nothing like that. The economic fit young men arriving in dinghies after pushing themselves to the front of the queue by paying the people smuggler gangs 3000 pounds or more to get here aren't fleeing wars or bombing they just fancy living in the UK, sod the poor buggers who can't pay, the genuine refugees, never mind the women and children they are leaving behind in supposed war torn countries, only a coward would leave their women and children and save themselves in my opinion. Some people must be very naive. Yes by all means welcome genuine refugees like the Ukrainian women and children who have left their men in Ukraine fighting for their country, I salute these men.

Why would we not mention "Germany and the Jews". It is the best and most recent example we have of the use of propaganda that is similar to that the Johnson government's are employing.

You said (removing the rhetoric) The economic fit young men ... aren't fleeing wars or bombing. What proof of this are you giving? So far I haven't seen anything other than what seems to be anger.

According to government figures that is not true in the majority of cases. A little less motivated reasoning and a few more facts would help.

It’s not PC to say ‘committed suicide’ volver I thought you’d definitely be on that! No longer illegal. People usually say ‘took their own life’ these days. Or ‘death by suicide’.

Semantics I know but you’d pull anyone else for a faux pas like that.

Anyway ... alternatives anyone?

Maudi

The Labour Red Wall seats who gave their vote to Boris to get Brexit done and take back control or our borders will agree with this scheme I would think. Yes I travel around the country a lot its an eye opener.

Why is it an eye opener.

I also travel around the country, and can’t think what you mean.

Anybody who thinks the Australian solution is one to copy is mistaken.

Anybody who thinks we're talking about "open borders" is mistaken.

Anyone who thinks it this or nothing, is mistaken.

I'm being polite.

It's not like me.

Looks like they may have a fight on their hands. But isn't that what they want? People looking the other way? Https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/16/peers-will-fight-uk-governments-awful-rwanda-plans-says-lord-dubs?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Urmstongran

^They were discussing the cost to Australia of the scheme they implemented. Can't remember the exact figure but it was over 1million for each refugee. So anyone who imagines it will save money is mistaken it will cost more^

But then guess what trisher? It stopped. No more trickling payments (like us) of £350 million a week. I checked. Shocking amount ... and no end in sight!

As I said earlier, if not this, then what??

Yes, and all those people who committed suicide and went mad?

Worth it, eh? At least the Australians saved money. That's what counts.

The Labour Red Wall seats who gave their vote to Boris to get Brexit done and take back control or our borders will agree with this scheme I would think. Yes I travel around the country a lot its an eye opener.

Urmstongran

Ah. Open borders Maudi? What fun.
Yet okay for those who shout from the sidelines in say sleepy pretty Devon villages, or maybe Anglesey or the Cotswolds.

Has anyone driven through Bradford of Birmingham lately? I was shocked.

What were you shocked at?