Latest from Ukraine

RE 'escalation'. There's an interesting thread here from twitter

According to his bio, O'Brien is :

Professor of Strategic Studies, University St Andrews, Author: How the War was Won, and Second Most Powerful Man in the World. Editor in Chief, War in History

Phillips P. OBrien@PhillipsPOBrien
·
6h
The increase of Ukrainian attacks in Russia, now evident, show actually how reluctant the Russian government is to fully mobilise or escalate up the NBC chain. There was lots of talk early in the war about the Russians staging a false flag operation to justify escalation

The idea was they would need an incident. Well, that seems now unnecessary. The Ukrainians are blowing up vital facilities in a large Russian more than 350k people (Belogorod)

Heck the Belgorod Governor is openly discussing these attacks.

Quote Tweet
The Kyiv Independent
@KyivIndependent
· May 1
⚡️Governor says fire erupted at military facility in Russia's Belgorod Oblast.

One person was injured, regional Governor Vyacheslav Gladkov said on May 1. Russia has accused Ukraine of shelling its neighboring regions, with Ukraine neither denying nor confirming this.

Phillips P. OBrien@PhillipsPOBrien
·
7h
Putin doesn’t need a false flag, the Ukrainians are providing him with an enormous, explosive banner, should he want to use it. But as of now he doesn’t want to. And that is interesting.

maddyone

I am so very afraid of this war escalating.

Me too, maddyone

Me too maddyone hence I'm in favour of supplying Ukraine with anything and everything they need.
It will obviously be expensive for everybody, but what choice is there?

I am so very afraid of this war escalating.

There are 5-7 geographical historical places that Russia has been invaded in the past. The Ukraine is one. Chechnya is another.
Poland and Sweden are two others.
Some experts are afraid if Putin isnt stopped he will move against Nato countries. Which will inevitable escalate.
If Russia can be contained and financially and physically exhausted, (troops and weapons are.difficult to replace), in the Ukraine for long enough, Putin will be too weak to follow his own plan.
Who knows if this is a correct analysis of the war? But it's one that makes sense of his position to me.

There was talk from one US official that the Allies could take the arms further into Ukraine so the troops didn't have to come so far back to pick them up and then return to whole way to the front line but I haven't heard that repeated

It sounds like a good idea but the problem there is that it could be interpreted differently by Putin.

The full name is Conservatives, but often shortened to Tories. Hope that helps.

If you are talking about Johnson’s political party, they are still called The Tories.

Sorry, I used the word Tory because I thought that is what they were called in the UK. We don’t have that term here and it is a long time since I lived in the UK. My bad. Sometimes ,when you live a long way away, you tend to remember places and events as they once were.

MaizieD

Callistemon21

Yes, but perhaps posters thought she meant the UK.

I knew she was posting about Australia. She regularly posts in this forum and we know she's in Australia.

I'm afraid I didn't and I thought nanna8 was talking about the UK. I really don't remember all the details about members. I'm not sure why we should be expected to. Apologies anyway.

Have you all noticed the change in tone and language from our country and from the USA? It's quite a dramatic change. Also, we are both putting diplomats back into Ukraine. I wonder if it's hit both countries that the attack is on all our democracies.

I am also wondering if we will get the extra weapons to the Ukraine army on the front line in time. There was talk from one US official that the Allies could take the arms further into Ukraine so the troops didn't have to come so far back to pick them up and then return to whole way to the front line but I haven't heard that repeated. The same person suggested that there is now such a variety of weaponry in Ukraine that it would be reasonable for NATO (I think it was NATO) countries to have some war games nearer to Keiv, so they can all learn to use them. I would guess that was a stick to poke Putin with rather and an actual plan but why now I wonder? It would certainly wind up the Russians and may be why they are making nuclear threats once more.

nanna8

Thanks Callistemon for correctly interpreting my post. Somehow I just knew someone would say you cannot compare our oppression here with the dreadful things happening in the Ukraine. Of course not and I said so,too. I repeat in case of skim reading or whatever. OF COURSE NOT. Just that I get so sick of people generalising about right wing extremism when there is a lot of left wing extremism around too. Probably more in my experience lately. I am not and never have been a Tory/ Conservative in my life in case you are wondering.

I think, in Western democracy, there is more right-wing extremism manipulating democracies and moving towards, or in our case, into power, than left-wing extremism, nanna8. However, no form of extremism helps as far as I can see and usually lead to a backlash towards the other extreme.

I wonder where you are seeing the rise of left-wing extremism and where you see that rise as looking as if it can succeed.

I'm not sure why people are declaring they are "not a Tory". I haven't seen it until this last week or so. Is there a mental "but" we should be reading into this?

nanna8

Thanks Callistemon for correctly interpreting my post. Somehow I just knew someone would say you cannot compare our oppression here with the dreadful things happening in the Ukraine. Of course not and I said so,too. I repeat in case of skim reading or whatever. OF COURSE NOT. Just that I get so sick of people generalising about right wing extremism when there is a lot of left wing extremism around too. Probably more in my experience lately. I am not and never have been a Tory/ Conservative in my life in case you are wondering.

I believe that Liberal in Australia is a misnomer, too, nanna8!
And, unlike the UK Police, Australian police are armed.

nanna8

Thanks Callistemon for correctly interpreting my post. Somehow I just knew someone would say you cannot compare our oppression here with the dreadful things happening in the Ukraine. Of course not and I said so,too. I repeat in case of skim reading or whatever. OF COURSE NOT. Just that I get so sick of people generalising about right wing extremism when there is a lot of left wing extremism around too. Probably more in my experience lately. I am not and never have been a Tory/ Conservative in my life in case you are wondering.

I'm sorry if you think I read your post the wrong way, but the point I was trying to make was that covid restrictions in a 'free' country don't indicate a tendency to repressive dictatorship. They were made by a freely elected government acting to curb the spread of what they (rightly) regarded as a lethal disease in order to protect the population. Did the Australian opposition parties object to this? Do you see it as a means for the government to obtain limitless and unchallengeable power?

Imposing restrictions for the wellbeing of the population is, in my mind, completely different from imposing restrictions and eliminating opposition with the sole aim of retaining power for ever... Do you seriously think that the latter is the aim of your Labour government?

They're not even comparable principles...

Thanks Callistemon for correctly interpreting my post. Somehow I just knew someone would say you cannot compare our oppression here with the dreadful things happening in the Ukraine. Of course not and I said so,too. I repeat in case of skim reading or whatever. OF COURSE NOT. Just that I get so sick of people generalising about right wing extremism when there is a lot of left wing extremism around too. Probably more in my experience lately. I am not and never have been a Tory/ Conservative in my life in case you are wondering.

Russia's education system all but collapsed in the 80's. It was a case of not being able to spread limited resources to support and improve education for the masses.
Some say that's why the Generals have made.so many poor decisions.
Although, one would have thought their experience in Chechnya etc. would have born fruit?
Propaganda, no education, and fear of the state, it's no wonder so many dont speak out against the war.

I still can't come to terms, though, with the idea that they are positively supporting the extermination of the Ukranian people

I'm not sure that they are. I think they are being told that the Nazis who have taken over Ukraine are doing it, and its them who are killing all these women and children. They also believe that the Ukrainians are really Russians and that they are doing a sacred duty by sending their sons in to fight the oppressors and free their Ukrainian brothers.

The Kremlin and the soldiers? Who knows what they believe.

Unfortunately the Mirror reading poor folk are in a minority Calli

varian

Are these poor Russian peasants indoctrinated by state media, really any different from poor people in the UK who get their news and opinions from the right wing gutter press Maizie?

Do you mean that none of these poor UK peasants read the Daily Mirror?

I still can't come to terms, though, with the idea that they are positively supporting the extermination of the Ukranian people

Me neither, MaizieD
We saw on TV news what seemed like normal, decent pleasant women, the kind you might meet anywhere, who agreed whole-heartedly with what Putin was doing.
Possibly Mothers? Grandmothers?

They've been brainwashed and have no other sources of information.

varian

Are these poor Russian peasants indoctrinated by state media, really any different from poor people in the UK who get their news and opinions from the right wing gutter press Maizie?

The difference being that the poorer section of the Russian population have little if no choice of viewing or newspapers, whereas the population of the U.K. has a choice and access to multiple news outlets.

Are these poor Russian peasants indoctrinated by state media, really any different from poor people in the UK who get their news and opinions from the right wing gutter press Maizie?

he stayed in a small town/village out in the sticks somewhere and stayed with a family. They were dirt poor.

This is one of the reasons why Putin's propaganda works so well. Much of the Russian population is very poor. they can't afford the technology that would give them access to alternative information. They rely on the very tightly controlled state media.

I still can't come to terms, though, with the idea that they are positively supporting the extermination of the Ukranian people.

Namsnanny

Without a doubt, better than Russia though, No?

nanna8 did say:
Not at all comparable with the dreadful Russian onslaught

Of course it isn't, we all know that but, as far as I am aware, far more stringent than anything here.

Callistemon21

Yes, but perhaps posters thought she meant the UK.

I knew she was posting about Australia. She regularly posts in this forum and we know she's in Australia.