Nationalism the fashionable form of government

I'll forgive your ahistorical statement, Callistemon because it's fairly amusing...

I think you'll find that we went on being little tribes for quite some time after the Romans left us. We even acquired a few more tribes from overseas...

I do hope someone tells all those ancient kingdoms that "nationalism" is a new fashion....lolThe Scottish flag has been in use since the mid 9th centuryand I'm fairly sure there are lots of others who have been independent countries for many centuries .
Our "nationalism" has been around since the union took place ,there were riots on the streets when people learned of the treachery of being handed over to our neighbour and long time enemy .
There have been ongoing campaigns over the centuries ,with Scottish Independence being in the first mandate of the Labour party led by Keir Hardie,the first Scottish National MP followed when Robert Bontine Cunningham Graham who was Hardies deputy left and formed the new National Party of Scotland .
Its not "fashionable" its whats right for us .
If its not what peoplewant why have the SNP just won their 13th election in a row..with an increased majority 20 more seats .A remarkable feat even mentioned on the biased BEEB

I get all that, paddyann - my point is not that people don't feel that way, as it's clear that many do - but to ask why it happens.

To go back to the 9th century, the king of the Scots would be fighting with the king of Northumbria and both of them would fight with the other kingdom on the borders, that took up parts of what are now Scotland and England - Benicia?

Who knows why? Territorialism, probably. There would be gains and losses over the years, and some ancient families will have lost and gained land and titles as a result. The vast majority of people would have had enough to do staying alive and feeding themselves without being bothered about who owned which bits of the land that they paid rent on. One king would be much like another, and probably none of them would be benevolent rulers - they were all thugs, really (on all sides).

Also, people have always come and gone over the various borders, which haven't been static anyway, so very many people are 'pure' English/Scots/Welsh/Irish anyway. I am technically English, but have Scots and Irish ancestors that I know of, (and maybe all sorts of others If I could go back to the 9th century) and many, if not most people on this tiny island will be similarly 'mixed'.

The bit that I find difficult to understand is that all these years later, people still bear allegiance to the old boundaries, and I wonder why.

Like most British people, my grandchildren have Scots, English, Welsh and Irish antecedents, so it is hardly surprising that so many British families are against the break up of our country.

I was born and brought up in Scotland but now live in England. Why should I have to produce a passport to drive from Car;lisle to Gretna? The separatists want to make us foreigners in our own country.

MaizieD

I'll forgive your ahistorical statement, Callistemon because it's fairly amusing...

I think you'll find that we went on being little tribes for quite some time after the Romans left us. We even acquired a few more tribes from overseas...

Yes, I do know.
?

The bit that I find difficult to understand is that all these years later, people still bear allegiance to the old boundaries, and I wonder why.

I don't actually think that in Scotland it is a case of adhering to old boundaries. We do things differently up here. We have a different country and a different culture. We have a different set of priorities, we believe different things are important. People who come here are new Scots, not "illegal migrants".

Now I'm not naïve, I know its not always like that. But our Parliament has a way of thinking that defines who we could be and how we think of ourselves. We don't always get it right but the story we tell ourselves about ourselves is a positive one, and despite what certain elements would have you believe, we don't just want to be different from the English, just for the sake of it, or just because we hate them.

So what some see as wicked nationalism, others see as something positive to aim at.

And not that it matters, my DNA says my family has been in Scotland since the ice sheet receded. In 9 generations of my family tree, nobody has been born outside Scotland. I had people on both sides at Culloden. But the new Dr Who, who was born in Rwanda but came here as a child, is just as Scottish as me.

No doubt someone will come along and tell me I'm a stupid idealist and its not like that at all, and that we're all consumed by hate. Well everyone will just have to make up their own minds.

And not that it matters, my DNA says my family has been in Scotland since the ice sheet receded. In 9 generations of my family tree, nobody has been born outside Scotland

Goodness - I wonder how many people can say that?

I think we're Bitzers.

varian

Like most British people, my grandchildren have Scots, English, Welsh and Irish antecedents, so it is hardly surprising that so many British families are against the break up of our country.

I was born and brought up in Scotland but now live in England. Why should I have to produce a passport to drive from Car;lisle to Gretna? The separatists want to make us foreigners in our own country.

I'm sure we'll have Freedom of Movement though trade might be difficult if independent Scotland joins the EU.

Several decades ago DH worked in a place that straddled the France/Switzerland border. You could enter the site from one country and leave it to another. He never had to show his passport. Scotland can't be expected to ignore its own ambitions because England wants to be treated as a special case.

Nationalism like Patriotism distracts the population from the real issues that affect everyday life. It has been used so often to achieve aims that are not in the best interests of the majority

Volver many more Scots do want to be part of the UK and are sick of the constant threat of another divisive referendum driving business and investment away because of the uncertainty

I agree with your first statement Brownowl1546. As I said above. But it will hopefully not always be that way.

Divisive referendum? Why is it always "divisive referendum?" I prefer "opportunity to let people have their say". Which I also said I didn't think should happen in the short term.

Where is the evidence of business and investment being driven away please?

Heartily agree, but re communities being over ridden against their will eg the reservoir in Wales for Water for Liverpool, its a scandal..

Agreed

I am all for nationalism if it means that we in England no longer have to fund devolved administrations that seem to get a better deal than we do here! More per capita spent on children's education in Scotland than England. Free prescriptions for all. No tuition fees. Just some of the perks that, believe me, irritate very many people. About Wales/N Ireland I can’t speak as they do not seem to be as vocal as our Scots neighbours. However, more seriously, I do wonder how defence would be calibrated in this increasingly dangerous world? It is extremely unlikely that NATO would accept these small countries into the fold; Scotland, under an independent government, would wish to rid itself of UK nuclear submarines anyway, I hear. Similarly the EU is unlikely to accept membership as Spain will not vote for it, being aware of the message it would give to their own Catalan/Basque separatists. The funding of small independent states is also a problem as many major companies have indicated, (in Scotland anyway) that they may well pull out taking valuable jobs and tax revenue with them. So nationalist interests have to be very carefully considered and voters should ask serious questions before such enormous decisions are made. Although I quite understand the pride of all parties in their country and their heritage, ( I am very proud to be English myself), these are hugely important considerations. Above all, Government(s) must establish and confirm the safety and security of these islands in a future that looks to become increasingly destabilised in the fractured world of geopolitics.

Countries with similar or smaller populations than Scotland who are NATO members: Denmark, Iceland, Luxembourg and Norway. I also don't believe any of them are nuclear powers?

I do wish folk would consider what they are saying before they start telling the Scots, or anybody else, what we should be doing and why.

Nationalist/nationalism some here have problems understanding the difference, but what I really have problems understanding is this, if Scotland costs so much to keep, why doesn't Westminster just let them go? Like the 60 plus other nations who have left the fold. Let Scotland go, and when things don't work out, because they are too wee and too poor, they can join that queue of nations clamouring to rejoin the Union. You know that queue of absolutely no-one.

Here here grannyrebel7. We should stick together. United we are stronger divided we are weaker.

nadateturbe totally agree. SF are celebrating on their historical win, but if the Unionists had joined together as one party it wouldn't of happened. My family were DUP voters for years and years, but I know my grandparents, parents, etc would be disgusted with the party now, I know I am and that's why I changed my way of voting this year. We need change in N.I, not the usual Orange and Green way of voting.
SF are saying they will work for all the people here, no they won't. Their aim has always been for a united Ireland and not everyone here wants that, some of us want to stay in the United Kingdom as we are far better off that way. The border here has caused so much bother I don't understand why Scotland would ever want one.

Amalegra

I am all for nationalism if it means that we in England no longer have to fund devolved administrations that seem to get a better deal than we do here! More per capita spent on children's education in Scotland than England. Free prescriptions for all. No tuition fees. Just some of the perks that, believe me, irritate very many people. About Wales/N Ireland I can’t speak as they do not seem to be as vocal as our Scots neighbours. However, more seriously, I do wonder how defence would be calibrated in this increasingly dangerous world? It is extremely unlikely that NATO would accept these small countries into the fold; Scotland, under an independent government, would wish to rid itself of UK nuclear submarines anyway, I hear. Similarly the EU is unlikely to accept membership as Spain will not vote for it, being aware of the message it would give to their own Catalan/Basque separatists. The funding of small independent states is also a problem as many major companies have indicated, (in Scotland anyway) that they may well pull out taking valuable jobs and tax revenue with them. So nationalist interests have to be very carefully considered and voters should ask serious questions before such enormous decisions are made. Although I quite understand the pride of all parties in their country and their heritage, ( I am very proud to be English myself), these are hugely important considerations. Above all, Government(s) must establish and confirm the safety and security of these islands in a future that looks to become increasingly destabilised in the fractured world of geopolitics.

Amalegra, if you would kindly read the thread, you will find that much of what you say is inaccurate. I can't put it any better than Granny23 did in her post of 9th May at 11:34:16. You are not subsidising our free prescriptions, etc. We are paying for them with our own taxes.

Mariema is on the button in the post today at 13:24:13 too. There are plenty of other posts from other people too. Are we all wrong?

It seems to me that we are going to get nowhere until England is sorted out. If there was a proper English Parliament to deal with their business, and a UK Parliament (much smaller, and with a more balanced input from all the countries of the UK) to deal with things which affected everyone, we might all get a bit more equality. Oh, was that a pig that I saw flying past...? ?

Scotland is, I believe, the only country in the world, whose king upon inheriting another kingdom, upped sticks and moved himself and his advisors to the other country's capital, as James VI did in 1603

Over 400 yrs ago and still banging on about it. Ye Gods!!

You know that queue of absolutely no-one.

Yet…

Yet what?

if Scotland costs so much to keep, why doesn't Westminster just let them go? Like the 60 plus other nations who have left the fold. Let Scotland go,

I do hope it doesn’t come to the armed rebellion that many former colonies did to get Independance, some prospered, many have made very little progress in the last 50 yrs. The elite in those nations have had the power but very little democracy. the masses.

I would vote to get rid of Scotland wether in benefits England or not, I just don’t like the continual bickering.

Get rid of Scotland...

Does anybody really wonder why some of us want to leave the UK?