Nationalism the fashionable form of government

It was Nicola Sturgeon who was touting it as a support for the referendum but quickly changed her mind when it wasn't going down well on the doorsteps. At the last Scottish election the Greens candidates were elected on the list vote not first preference. I don't believe that MSPs who were not voted for on the preference vote should have ministerial positions no matter how junior they are.

Do not forget that Hitler was a nationalist and look where that got us.

Strength in numbers !

nadateturbe

Our intelligent government certainly didn't think through the long term effects before agreeing to the Protocol, and NI doing EU checks.

They thought the EU would agree to concessions but they didn’t and won’t because it makes tax evasion, smuggling and trade rule breaking possible.

A border within Ireland is unthinkable, that is an empty threat there would be major problems for the UK, far worse than the border checks that are happening now. For trade or personal use the hard fact is that it’s easier to buy from EU sellers and sidestep the UK.

The UK could have adopted EU standards, in many areas but chose not to, everything, product safety, health standards, transport regulations and labour movement. So everything has to be checked before it can move to EU, it’s our choice.

Katie59 I fail to see how sending goods from GB straight to Dublin port instead of Larne creates a N/S border.
Why are we, in NI, paying for EU checks?
When the grace period is up, it will cost even more. Businesses may pull out of NI completely.

nadateturbe because then you’d have to have a land border for goods moving between you and Ireland, which, as Katie59 has pointed is unconscionable.

If the destination of the goods is the ROI normal import checks are required entering the EU as they would be at Dover or elsewhere. Why is that a N/S border issue .

It’s a mess for sure, businesses will have to change it’s happened between Mainland UK and the EU also vice versa. Although goods coming into UK are still being waved through without checks. This is in itself is causing a problem, they have no import status

stewaris

It was Nicola Sturgeon who was touting it as a support for the referendum but quickly changed her mind when it wasn't going down well on the doorsteps. At the last Scottish election the Greens candidates were elected on the list vote not first preference. I don't believe that MSPs who were not voted for on the preference vote should have ministerial positions no matter how junior they are.

I think you're confusing the voting systems used for different elections, stewaris. In general elections we vote by FPTP for a constituency MSP candidate and then for a party list so that there is a bit of evening up. Greens haven't stood in every constituency, but have always stood as a list, so it's not surprising that that is how they get MSPs. The argument that list MSPs are somehow "not as good" as constituency MSPs is getting a bit tired, as they are elected as well, just in a different way.

We will always have to check goods produced in NI which go to Republic.

My main point though is why should NI come out worse than everyone else. We will end up with job losses and much higher cost of living than the rest of the UK.

And even worse, now no solution is likely to suit both 'sides'. It would have been better to think it through before agreeing.

Zonne

nadateturbe because then you’d have to have a land border for goods moving between you and Ireland, which, as Katie59 has pointed is unconscionable.

Or, if the sea border which exists now were to be retained, but goods go through the Dublin port all you're doing is transferring the costs of the EU checks from NI to Ireland and adding extra costs (further to transport the goods) for the businesses supplying NI.

All in all it's a complete mess, as people were warning before the 2016 referendum. The Leave campaigners lied and lied about Brexit having any adverse effect on NI (well, they lied about its adverse effects on the whole of the UK, really), Remain voting NI was, of course, ignored as the Leave voting DUP gave May their support to keep her government going and the DUP believed the lies Johnson told them in the run up to signing the protocol.

Threats to suspend article 16 are ridiculous. It won't make the EU 'give in' on anything. If it is suspended it'll be a trade war with the EU and guess who'll win it?

I'm really sorry, nadertube but NI is in a pickle...

The DUP had to be bribed to give May their support - we gave the £1.5bn.

Presumably goods produced in NI will have to comply with EU standards so won’t need checking, the UK plans to accept EU standards.

“Think it through from the beginning”
The UK has insisted on its own regulations not being regulated by EU, that’s fine when our rules are equivalent and agreed, some are now. But the UK has insisted to be able to “diverge” from those standards, the aviation industry is in chaos because the rules are different and not recognized.

In what way is the cost of living higher in NI ?

Add to that, if the Tories really do scrap the Protocol and thus trigger a trade war, the resultant mess will make the present situation, in all parts of the Uk, look like nirvana.

A trade war makes so much sense given that the rise in the cost of living is higher than it has ever been in living memory.

It would have been better to think it through before agreeing.

It would have been even better if some of those 17.4million Leave voters had done a bit of thinking before they put their cross against the 'Leave the EU' option.

Katie
Extra osts are being passed to customers. And also checking at ports is paid for by NI.
Sorry, out of time.....

A solution would be for the UK to commit to equivalent standards, which would be a big help in many areas but that is not on the cards

Don’t forget that Johnson said.

A line in the sea will be drawn over my dead body.

The DUP believed him.

Is he likely to go for a sail in the Irish Sea any time soon...?

Whitewavemark2

A trade war makes so much sense given that the rise in the cost of living is higher than it has ever been in living memory.

Completely agree. But Johnson doesn’t care. All he wants is to appease enough right-wing swivel-eyed Brexiteer Tory MPs to keep him in power.

I suspect the answer to Wheniwasyourage’s question is, therefore: not if that ploy works.

It’s all so depressing and infuriating.

paddyann54

NHS Scotland is a totally seperate entity and has been since its inception .Of course we'll have the health service ,which in Scotland has more GP's Nurses and Dentists per head of population than any other part of the UK.
The problem we have philly is that our funding is linked to the NHS England and Wales by Barnet and our income has dropped in real terms by several billion over the past ten years .
Sadly devolution doesn't give us enough power or income to do what we need in all areas. As for school I think you'll find that most areas have had new schools ,my area has had 3 primaries and 2 secondaries and several refurbished in the past 10 years.
This was done WITHOUT the extortionate PFI funding used by Labour which will see councils paying for school AFTER they have been demolished .
The only way we can run this country how we want to ,i.e. in a manner that suits all levels of income from babies to pensioners is to get total control of our revenue .
Remember we work on less than half our revenue with Barnet ...and thats not counting taxables such as whisky that go through as ENGLISH exports.
This government while not perfect and due criticism as all governments are have been mitigating the bedroom tax for 70,000 tenants @ 75% of whom have disabled family who need space for equipment or extra help
.Has built 100,000 affordable homes 70,000 which are council .Councils who dont use the special funding for housing have it taken off them ...and its given to councils who do.In my area there are several hundred new build council houses It also gives free bus travel to all under 22 year olds ,saving parents money ,time ferrying kids around and old bangers on the roads...good for the environmentand has

Independence is normal ,having your next door neighbour run your country isn't,no business in the world would give their neighbour their income and let them divvy it up so why should country ?
Please take time to find out facts ,get in touch with Believe in Scotland on FB and they'll provide you with accurate funding /financial information for an independent Scotland .
I hope you can be persuaded to join the fight for our homeland

Paddyann…. As you say , Scotland’s NHS is devolved…. the Scottish Government decide what they wish to spend on it, so not quite sure how the UK Government comes into it.
The Scottish Government like to say that the GP numbers have gone up…. and the headcount may have gone up… but they are not always upfront about the fact that more are working part time so leaving significant gaps in the service.
The Scottish Government’s workforce planning for the NHS has been extremely poor. Nicola Sturgeon as Health Secretary reduced the number of medical places for Scottish students , so not enough graduates coming though to fill vacancies. She also cut the number of student nurses by 300 despite being warned by the Royal College of nursing it would mean future shortages.
We must accept responsibility for our own decisions on where the money is allocated if we want to be independent….

Cathy Mac
Totally agree with you, the fact is the majority of people in Scotland do NOT vote for SNP or independence, and that hasn’t changed up to now

This the constant chorus from people who think they are exposing the truth, that the majority of people do not vote SNP or for independence is getting very wearing.

More people voted for the SNP in first preference votes than voted for any other party. That's why they keep winning elections. There's a trend across social media right now to selectively pick on one aspect of the voting and try to pretend it changes things; it doesn't. The SNP keep winning elections. That's it.

And the last time we voted for independence, a majority didn't want it. That's the only time we've been asked. Polls and newspaper opinion pieces don't count. If we are asked again then we can say what the outcome is. Not until then.

Voted ON independence, I should say.

But we already voted on independence and said no. Why do it again? It'll only reopen the already nasty divide and the continuing uncertainty will lead to further economic stagnation. What if we vote no again? Will SNP keep trying? If so, why?