The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

True.

But then there are people with tattoos that I would assume were indicators of their dire need for psychological intervention . There's a fine line between protecting people from themselves and denying bodily autonomy.

I know women who were refused sterilisation in their late 20s in case they (or hypothetical male partners!) regretted the decision in later life. I thought that was presumptuous, and wonder if saying that TullipR should have been denied the surgery is the same sort of thing. I could probably be persuaded either way at this stage, though, and it's very definitely a tragic case.

At what age do we say that someone can be assumed to know their own mind?

I don't think it's a question of a specific age, but of whether a person, such as TullipR, has adequate care.

Given the lack of interest in proper counseling for 'trans' children in the UK, it seems very possible that the same is true for TullipR and other 'transitioners' .

Most people would agree that if someone feels their true identity needs a limb amputation, they need extensive psychological help.

Yet similarly serious surgery of breasts and genitals seems to be treated much more casually.

I agree with you AussieNana that it is now necessary to spell out that I don't want a transwoman doctor etc, if that is the case.

Not everyone realises quite how far this ideology has penetrated, however.

It's appalling that now someone who believes she has clearly asked for a female, and been assured of getting a female, could still find that a man who is claiming to be female will turn up.

We arent denying that, biological reality denies that. You cant really ignore the limitations because they impact so fully on those who are trans.

Elegran

^"- yes I know they are not genetically so, but just refusing to acknowledge any transition or any gender dysmorphia does seem anti trans to me."^ Gender dysmorphia is not what is in question. If someone is suffering from acute distress at their sex (the definition of gender dysmorphia) , then they have presumably consulted an expert, who is treating them to minimise that distress. It is a recognised and diagnosable condition, and I don't think anyone is refusing to acknowledge it.

If someone is not suffering acute distress - or any distress at all - but would prefer to be the other sex, then there is no requirement at all for them to claim that dysmorphia, or to get medical advice or treatment. They just state that from now on they are a man or a woman, they apply for legal recognition of that identitity, and if accepted, that is that. No transition, no dysphoria, and Bob's your Aunt Fanny.

I think some people are refusing to acknowledge it as real and/or the person as having the option to transition.

I agree people should not be able to just claim this and adults should have extensive counselling before making any ireversible decisions.

Of course we want to avoid tragic cases like that where people regret it - but also don't deny it to those who do want to go ahead and dont deny them the opportunity to live as the transitioned sex once they fully have.
(within some limitations, I get that, but as few as possible)

FarNorth

"Please could I have a female doctor / nurse / therapist " is a specific request AussieNana.
It shouldn't need further explanation.

well i would make any request as specific as possible - given some people do consider transitioned people to be the other sex.

Whether that is right or wrong would be beside the point in makeing a request - my purpose in any request is that other people do get my request right not that they should .

I think that this case is tragic, but I'm nos sure that much about it can be extrapolated to the issue at large.

At what age do we say that someone can be assumed to know their own mind? At my time of life, I can say (and mean it) that 25 year olds are very young, but at the same time, they are fully functioning adults, who can make legally binding decisions about all sorts of things, and be expected to take the consequences of those actions. We can't reasonably say that someone has to be older to make decisions about their own lives, effectively pushing the age of majority to 30 or so.

I have a lot more sympathy for children who are encouraged to explore ideas about transitioning by teachers/parents/society - if not overtly (although the push to teach that there are 100 genders or whatever is making this more overt), by the non-questioning, knee-jerk way in which 'being in the wrong body' is accepted as the most likely reason for all sorts of distress.

When someone is told something for long enough at a young age they are more likely to believe it - after all, children have picked up on the sorts of gender stereotyping that feminists have fought against for years. Blue or pink, dolls or Tonka toys, toy kitchens or garages - that sort of thing. Preference for the sorts of toys that many of us will have seen as unisex is now being interpreted as grounds for assuming that a child would be happier if treated as the opposite sex from the one they are. I find that more worrying than one case of an adult making a terrible mistake, really. That is not to say that I don't sympathise with TullipR - of course I do. His life is ruined.

If anything good can come from this it will be that adults will see what can happen and the push back against Stonewall and all its works will gather even more momentum. Let's hope so.

Doodledog

It wouldn't, Galaxy. AussieNanna, you keep saying that cards were not your idea, as though that means it's ok to carry on plugging them, even when it's clear that they won't work. As DL has said, she mentioned the idea as a passing thought, and no longer sees them as viable. If you still like the idea you might like to think about the practicalities before continuing to blame DL for bringing it up?

Blame?
no blame attached for making a suggestion.
I didnt think I was plugging them, more saying I think the idea has potential
which I still do.

but I never claimed to have all details of practicality worked out and happy to leave that idea behind if an idea cannot be explored unless one has all details mapped out in advance.

I agree children are a different scenario but I also want adults to receive adequate care. I will never forgot an older gay men describing the con version treatment he received in the 50s I think. 'They tried to convince me I was really a woman because I was attracted to men'. Is this any different? I just dont know. We need to look at the possible homophobia intrinsic to some of this and we need proper follow up. I can see no evidence for example that suicide rates improve after transition surgery. We need to have a grown up discussion about this backed up with proper research and data.

I read that TullipR was 25 when he had surgery. He says he’d always known he was gay in an openly yomophobicvfamily. He took hormones initially bought over the internet before seeing his GP to discuss transition.

I’m not diminishing his distress. It’s a different scenario than the GIDs clinic at the Tavistock where it’s clear, children in primary school were listened to with the focus on gender, not whole identity, attachment, family relationship issues being part of the assessment.

But what they are being offered is a lie and its looks from what we can gather at the tavistock that there is very little exploration of other issues, in this case his sexuality. I think they are right to sue, it appears they are being offered sub standard medical care. Despite the accusations I am not a transphobe so I want people with gender dysphoria to have adequate treatment. It appears to me that those cheering this on with limited follow up and data are the ones who dont care about trans people.

This sort of action has been predicted for a long time. What a crazy world, where some claim it’s OK to chemically or surgically damage children because children can know what they want and understand the future implications of their actions and others even as old as 25, claiming that they didn’t really understand and nobody told them.
I’m sorry for this young man, but there has to be a point where adults accept responsibility for their decisions.
He presumably signed a consent form.

The NHS are being sued by a biological man who regretted his transgender surgery immediately:

"A young British man who had his genitals removed during gender reassignment surgery is suing the NHS over the operation in a historic legal action.

He complains that doctors did not warn him of the drastic outcome of the body-altering surgery which has left him infertile, incontinent and feeling like a ‘sexual eunuch’.

He said on Twitter yesterday: ‘The minute I woke up from surgery, I knew I had made the biggest mistake of my life.’

Stephanie Davies-Arai, founder of Transgender Trend, a group advising parents on transgender children and young adults, said: ‘It is hoped this will force a re-think by the NHS about this kind of barbaric surgery on patients who are told by medics it will help them.

‘He has a very real case for compensation against the heath service. We believe he has suffered harm.’

His case has been taken on by lawyers in Liverpool. It centres on whether the NHS and its gender clinics adequately counselled him before the operation five years ago. The patient, in his thirties, was brought up in the North of England and has de-transitioned from being a woman to live as a man again.

The man says he is gay and his sexuality should have been discussed before the radical, irreversible gender surgery. ‘I have been castrated. That is the correct term,’ he says on his Twitter feed, which has 19,000 followers.

‘I cannot believe they [the NHS] were allowed to do this to me."

"TullipR says he transitioned at 25, more than a decade ago, and started taking female hormones to feminise his body. This was followed by surgery when he underwent an NHS operation called ‘penile inversion with scrotal graft’ which removes male genitalia and uses the tissue to construct a false vagina."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10947483/Anguish-young-man-sex-organs-removed-NHS-regretted-day-SUES-NHS.html

The Twitter thread makes clear that Ireland is maybe not doing as well as claimed.

There are also links to the Scottish Parliament video & transcript.

Well that’s OK for Ireland despite the fact that females in Ireland have issues with male violence.
Whatever people call themselves, TW, TM, Non-binary, in whatever country in the world, only females can give birth, but if Ireland doesn’t want to acknowledge biology, that’s Irelands choice.
Does it demonstrate respect for females? No, but that again is their choice.

Ireland has had self-id of sex since 2015.

"Delayed tweet thread based on this afternoon's [22 June 2022] oral evidence [in the Scottish Parliament] on the Gender Recognition Reform Bill, from Senator Regina Doherty, Leader, Seanad Éireann."

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1539557291971731456.html

"- yes I know they are not genetically so, but just refusing to acknowledge any transition or any gender dysmorphia does seem anti trans to me." Gender dysmorphia is not what is in question. If someone is suffering from acute distress at their sex (the definition of gender dysmorphia) , then they have presumably consulted an expert, who is treating them to minimise that distress. It is a recognised and diagnosable condition, and I don't think anyone is refusing to acknowledge it.

If someone is not suffering acute distress - or any distress at all - but would prefer to be the other sex, then there is no requirement at all for them to claim that dysmorphia, or to get medical advice or treatment. They just state that from now on they are a man or a woman, they apply for legal recognition of that identitity, and if accepted, that is that. No transition, no dysphoria, and Bob's your Aunt Fanny.

I disagree about it should be sufficient though

if you have a specific request then be specific. Saying I want a female doctor, nurse or counsellor is specific enough. It’s just that some males think that they can change sex. They can’t. It’s discriminatory against females to force them to accept a TW when they have specifically asked for a female. It’s dishonest of a male, TE or not, to appear in response to that specific request.
Not being anti trans means Having no problem with trans-who don’t try to erode women’s rights, or cheat in sport or claim to be female when they’re not.

It shouldn't, FN.

There are only a few occupations where it would matter whether the holder is male or female. I have no idea why people who say they have always felt 'in the wrong body' don't simply avoid those occupations and work in one of the numerous areas where it doesn't matter at all.

Or are we now going to hear that someone has 'always known' that they were a gynaecologist, or a rape counsellor, and that it is discriminatory to suggest that taking up a different medical specialism, or going into couples counselling or phobia therapy would be a better idea for those who have known since childhood that they wanted to belong to the opposite sex from their own?

"Please could I have a female doctor / nurse / therapist " is a specific request AussieNana.
It shouldn't need further explanation.

It wouldn't, Galaxy. AussieNanna, you keep saying that cards were not your idea, as though that means it's ok to carry on plugging them, even when it's clear that they won't work. As DL has said, she mentioned the idea as a passing thought, and no longer sees them as viable. If you still like the idea you might like to think about the practicalities before continuing to blame DL for bringing it up?

Why do people think an identity card would help women in refuges and prisons who dont want to share their space with men.

Doodledog

AussieNanna
Who is going to check identity cards? We can't seriously expect there to be a security guard in every Ladies' loo, can we?

No of course we cant.

we dont have guards checking to see who of any sex goes in any loo or anywhere now - but it would mean if people were challenged they couldnt just have a story on the day.....I didnt float the idea and I dont have details on how it would work - but I think it has potential.

DiamondLily

If I'm due an examination, where I would like a woman to examine me, then that's what I want.

A female - a woman born of the female sex.

If I didn't care what biological sex I required, I'd say that to them.

The NHS states that dignity and privacy must be preserved, so I'd like mine preserving.

A man wanting to be a woman, or identifying as a woman, is still a biological male.

I don't know when it all got so complicated.?

well thats up to you.

I think being as specific as possible in requests (any requests at all) helps there be no misunderstanding.
I don 't see that as complicated.

The trouble with that is that in existing buildings the loos are where they are, and adding new ones costs a fortune because of plumbing issues. What invariably happens is that the Gents' stay the same, and the Ladies' gets converted to 'gender-neutral', meaning that women have to wait even longer to have a wee, and still have to share their private space with men.