The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

TRA's 0.07% of the population apparently

Is that Trans Rights Activists, people who have transitioned, or people who 'identify' out of their sex?

I think it was people who have transitioned.

ITV's Steve Scott interviewed cyclist Emily Bridges:

mobile.twitter.com/itvnews/status/1534204596276666368

luluaugust

I think it was people who have transitioned.

Thanks, luluaugust. That's a very small number of people, isn't it, to say they wield so much power over policies and legislation?

As many of us have been saying all along though, it's not the transitioned who are the issue. It's not even the 'ordinary' untransitioned people who want to live as though they were the opposite sex.

It is the group wanting self-id so that anyone can access women's spaces just by saying they think/feel they are female (without being able to say what that means or how it feels) and their hangers-on who are the issue. By definition we don't know how many of them there are, but from the way so many things are being changed to suit them, you'd think they were a majority group, not 'the most marginalised minority in society' as they claim.

Emily Bridges who has enjoyed a male puberty, the advantages of having been a male in sports (admitted during the interview) now thinks they are suffering the disadvantage of being a 'female' sportsperson. No Emily, you are still a male person with your height, bone density and length, larger heart and lung capacity advantage. Speak as softly as you like but you are willing to ride roughshod over female cyclists. Live your best life, live as you think women live, I wish you well and hope you are happy in your transition, but do the decent thing, race against men or stop competitive racing. Incidentally, do you not think it worthy of consideration that two transwomen (including you) took 1st and 2nd places in the recent Herne Hill Velodrome races? A natal woman managed 3rd place. Better luck next year, maybe transwomen will sweep the board!

FarNorth

Being homosexual doesn't require damaging alterations to bodies.

Being homosexual doesn't require everyone to pretend that an untruth is true.

People's bodies stay the same sex all their lives, whatever the individual may feel about it.

Is the person you mention a child who is transitioning?

of course being homosexual doesnt require those things- I wasnt saying it does.

I was comparing mothers being blamed for children being homosexual with blaming parents for children being trans gender -the 'find the cause' and 'it was parents following stereotypes' comments - rather than it was just how some people are

However being homosexual certainly did in the past require people to pretend - they couldnt be openly homosexual.

of course people bodies DNA remains the same - I am not arguing otherwise
They can socially and physically transition though

The person I know who is transitioning is now 23 years old

Emily Bridges 'just wants to compete with fellow female cyclists'.

Since when have transwomen been 'female' as well as 'women'? - Neither of which they actually are, of course .

AussieNanna you refer to the counselling etc required before transition, but seem to fail to appreciate that many, if not most, posters to this site are in the UK so will have concerns how these issues are dealt with in the UK. When anybody can access women's changing rooms ( in small high street shops often communal ie not separate individual rooms) or toilets, sports etc just by 'identifying' as women ( even when sporting a luxurious beard!) this is a concern. Nobody is saying all transwomen as a class pose a threat just that these regulations open the doors wide for malignant misrepresentation at the very least. Isn't it rather telling though that it is always MtF transition that causes problems, never the other way round?
I really think conflating homosexuality with transgender is both insulting and derogatory to homosexuals. They have never attempted to have language definitions changed or compelled speech, both of which are happening under the transgender agenda.

FarNorth

Emily Bridges 'just wants to compete with fellow female cyclists'.

Since when have transwomen been 'female' as well as 'women'? - Neither of which they actually are, of course .

Because having got so many on board that TWAW the next step was always to commandeer 'female' as well. There will soon be no class of XX people at all.....we're irrelevant, disposable, of no concern. Long live XY people however they want to be classified!!!

I was talking about young children transitioning - all accounts I have seen show parents who are blinded by stereotypes .
That's my observation of them and their own descriptions of the situation - not just an assumption of mine.

Check out Susie Green's ted talk about her son, videos of Jazz Jennings, Kai Shapley & his mum Kimberley or Jacob Lemay & her parents.

Even the much acclaimed UK TV drama 'Butterfly' showed parents who couldn't cope with an effeminate boy, as if that was justification for Max deciding he must be trans.

If you AussieNana can find any accounts of trans children which are not based on stereotypes I'd be very interested to see them.

Here's a link to Jazz Jennings reading his own book, intended for children, about his transition .

youtu.be/BF5D2lsPfsU

Check out Susie Green's ted talk about her son,

I saw a link to that ted talk ages ago, and remember my horror as I watched it. It was so obvious that the father was 'terrified' he had a gay son. Susie gave her son her HRT tablets and then took him to Thailand for a vaginoplasty for his 16th birthday I've seen a video where she laughs and says "they didn't have much to work with" because Jack's penis had remained at prepubescent size. I've seen very little of Jazz Jennings and his transition, but have seen photos where Jazz has ballooned to an enormous size. I will never believe that the whole transition process was in Jazz's interests. It's incredibly sad, poor deluded, used individual.

Emily Bridges has given an interview, and seems to blame Boris Johnson for some alleged threats:

"A Transgender cyclist who won gold in an 'inclusive' race has revealed she received threats of 'physical violence' after Boris Johnson said 'biological males shouldn't compete in women's sports' events.

Emily Bridges claimed she suffered threats 'from strangers online' after the Prime Minister made his 'controversial' comments back in April and has blasted him for 'not knowing anything' about the issue.

Bridges has now told ITV News: 'It's really strange to see, probably the most famous man in Britain, talking about you and having an opinion on something he doesn't know anything about.

'The response after that was as expected. I had threats of physical violence made against me, and by complete strangers online, and I'm scared a lot of the time about being who I am in public."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10894105/Emily-Bridges-received-threats-violence-PM-comments-trans-rights-sports.html

The young girl, hounded out of her school, last month has given an interview to Julie Bindel, in the DM:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-10894523/Sixth-former-bullied-private-girls-school-questioning-trans-ideology-shares-story.html

As we can’t ‘like’ on gransnet, may I just say thank you to Rosie51 for her posts
at this point also note strange set of emoticons. Clapping hands would be good. Or a hug. Failing these also a big bunch of flowers to Doodledog for her perseverance and clarity.

From the Julie Bindel interview with 'Kate' :

"her experience of anorexia has given her special insight, which she discusses with typical eloquence.

'I couldn't help but hear the anorexic mentality reverberate in conversations about gender dysphoria,' she says.

'Both anorexia and gender dysphoria [make people] aspire to reach an idealised form of the self, liberated from the grotesque realities of material existence. Both are driven by a desire to control one's reality — to unveil a potential 'truth'.

'I'm not denying the validity of medical transition as a means to stifle that incessant anguish; the frenzied grief and piercing wails that drive one to the brink of madness.

'A common refrain was that I would kill myself if I gained weight. I tried [to commit suicide] and, thankfully, failed. But I would have done so either way, treatment or affirmation.'

It is a fascinating insight — and one that warrants closer study."

Thank you grannygranby

Aussienana, I wonder why you have chosen to compare trans issues with homosexuality? Many transwomen (male bodied) claim to be lesbians, which, even without the numerous other reasons why that comparison is spurious, shows that sexuality and 'identification' out of one's sex are not comparable, as a male bodied person who is attracted to female bodied people is a heterosexual man.

Comparisons between homosexuality and trans issues have been made before on here, and I wonder if that is because the poster(s) concerned look on gay men as effeminate, in the manner of John Inman or similar, and draw parallels based on that? Whether or not that is true, they only work up to a point.

If you choose a different comparison - let's take Dyslexia - and try to map it onto trans issues, you can see that there is a logical fallacy at play:
*Parents realise that their child is not 'typical'.

*Child expresses unhappiness and is clearly underperforming at school.

*Parents look for an explanation which doesn't exacerbate a fear of their own (in this case that they have a non-academic child, or that their child is homosexual).

(so far, the comparison is working, but from this point on it breaks down)

* The child is diagnosed and given strategies to deal with their Dyslexia in a world where most people are not. the focus is on helping the child to adapt, not on changing the world to suit their needs.

*Life may be difficult in some ways, but adaptations are made in school, and later in the workplace, so the person with Dyslexia is able to live in a way that takes account of their difference in that specific part of their whole.

*Nobody else is expected to wear coloured lenses in special glasses, or to have speech-enabled keyboards, or extra time in examinations - the person with Dyslexia uses whatever strategies necessary to help with their own particular diagnosis.

*Nobody pointing out that Dyslexics are slow readers is going to be criminalised, and libraries, bookshops and other places where readers meet are not targeted by terrorists.

Researchers into Dyslexia might look for causes, in the hope of using the findings to find coping strategies, and if they see that it is hereditary (which I believe aspects of it are), and that it runs matrilineally (which I don't think is the case) then those findings could potentially be used to help those living with the condition. As with any area being researched, the more information that is gathered the fuller a picture ensues - it is not about blaming anyone, but about finding links that may prove to be useful later.

What an excellent post, Doodledog. The comparison with dyslexia is spot-on and could be a very useful way of explaining to the unconvinced just what the TRA problem is for the majority of us (female and male). ?

The child is diagnosed and given strategies to deal with their Dyslexia in a world where most people are not. the focus is on helping the child to adapt, not on changing the world to suit their needs

This is the common conception about disability which frequently relies on the medical model and which is challenged by all active in disability rights. The social model says that the world should adapt to the person who is seen as disabled- (differently abled is often the term used) and that such adaptations should be the norm not the exception.
The model says that people are disabled by barriers in society, not by their impairment or difference. Barriers can be physical, like buildings not having accessible toilets. Or they can be caused by people's attitudes to difference, like assuming disabled people can't do certain things.
The social model helps us recognise barriers that make life harder for disabled people. Removing these barriers creates equality and offers disabled people more independence, choice and control.
So actually the whole concept is wrong.

DiamondLily, It is rarely that I support anything said by Boris Johnson (or that is printed in the Mail, for that matter); but I can't disagree with this (from your link upthread):

. . . Mr Johnson wade[d] into the trans row by declaring that biological males should not be allowed to compete in women's sporting events. The Tory leader also said that parents should have 'involvement at the very least' in decisions made by children to alter their gender. And Mr Johnson added that women should have spaces in hospitals, prisons and changing rooms which were 'dedicated to women'. He said: 'That's as far as my thinking has developed on this issue. If that puts me in conflict with some others, then we have got to work it all out. That doesn't mean that I'm not immensely sympathetic to people who want to change gender, to transition. It's vital that we give people the maximum possible love and support in making those decisions. 'But these are complex issues and I don't think they can be solved with one swift, easy piece of legislation. It takes a lot of thought to get this right.'

If the other parties don't get their acts together on this topic, they are going to struggle, IMO. I am as far from a Mail reading Tory sympathiser as it's possible to get, but I wholeheartedly agree with every word.

Thank you grannygranby

Yes, an excellent post Doodledog It really is absolutely spot on in its analysis.

I do feel sad for Emily Bridges receiving violent threats. I wonder how much thought or concern Emily has given to the likes of JKR or the schoolgirl in the Mail article for the threats and violence they've been receiving. Emily has much in common with Lia Thomas, both are only concerned with their own feelings and happiness, caring not one jot for the females they will always displace. If both raced in their sex class there'd be no criticism, but of course Lia would definitely not be winning any prizes. Emily on the other hand did well in a mens race just a month before being excluded from that race against Laura Kenny.

Glorianny

*The child is diagnosed and given strategies to deal with their Dyslexia in a world where most people are not. the focus is on helping the child to adapt, not on changing the world to suit their needs*

This is the common conception about disability which frequently relies on the medical model and which is challenged by all active in disability rights. The social model says that the world should adapt to the person who is seen as disabled- (differently abled is often the term used) and that such adaptations should be the norm not the exception.
The model says that people are disabled by barriers in society, not by their impairment or difference. Barriers can be physical, like buildings not having accessible toilets. Or they can be caused by people's attitudes to difference, like assuming disabled people can't do certain things.
The social model helps us recognise barriers that make life harder for disabled people. Removing these barriers creates equality and offers disabled people more independence, choice and control.
So actually the whole concept is wrong.

It's probably worth pointing out that it is actually an offence to fail to provide adaptations which enable equal access to premises or to discriminate against anyone because of a disability and that such discrimination, or harassment is illegal. And that you can be prosecuted for such behaviour

saricharity.org.uk/disability-discrimination/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkYGVBhArEiwA4sZLuC22wIByzTqMQnDd8hQVrYOL6rdQsgVPzfcApibkhfi3hjVu-RZS-BoCuicQAvD_BwE .

It is reasonable to expect that some changes be made in society to make things easier for a minority of people, eg ramps and lifts to help those who have difficulty with stairs, schools having resources to help pupils with dyslexia, braille info on medication etc.

I also think it's fine for society to change so that sex-based stereotypes are removed or at least reduced so that a male person wearing 'feminine' clothing, and vice versa, is completely acceptable.

I definitely don't think it's fine that every person's statement about their inner awareness of gender identity should be accepted as if it is the same as the category of sex - yet this is what is being demanded.

Non-binary people haven't been mentioned much in this thread.
Perhaps many non-binary people simply mean that they'll present how they want and they don't feel obliged to signal what their sex is, in everyday life.
Fair enough.

If they consider that they have no sex, though, or that their sex is changeable - they are mistaken.

Many, many people, including most of the people involved in the Scottish Parliament discussions on the GRA, cannot seem to grasp the difference between physical sex and gender identity.