The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

FarNorth

It is reasonable to expect that some changes be made in society to make things easier for a minority of people, eg ramps and lifts to help those who have difficulty with stairs, schools having resources to help pupils with dyslexia, braille info on medication etc.

I also think it's fine for society to change so that sex-based stereotypes are removed or at least reduced so that a male person wearing 'feminine' clothing, and vice versa, is completely acceptable.

I definitely don't think it's fine that every person's statement about their inner awareness of gender identity should be accepted as if it is the same as the category of sex - yet this is what is being demanded.

Yes, to stick with the Dyslexia analogy, schools provide laptops and coloured perspex sheets to help, and of course there should be ramps and hearing loops etc for those who need them.

That is not the same as changing the language to suit a tiny minority of people, or allowing open access to anyone who wants it to previously single-sex areas, though.

I also agree that it would be good if 'society' changed to loosen the gender sereotypes that TRAs want to tighten; but I'm uneasy about that being enforced in some way. Society has to evolve on its own, and ironically, many gender stereotypes were already breaking down when the trans lobby stepped in to bring them back.

Glorianny

*The child is diagnosed and given strategies to deal with their Dyslexia in a world where most people are not. the focus is on helping the child to adapt, not on changing the world to suit their needs*

This is the common conception about disability which frequently relies on the medical model and which is challenged by all active in disability rights. The social model says that the world should adapt to the person who is seen as disabled- (differently abled is often the term used) and that such adaptations should be the norm not the exception.
The model says that people are disabled by barriers in society, not by their impairment or difference. Barriers can be physical, like buildings not having accessible toilets. Or they can be caused by people's attitudes to difference, like assuming disabled people can't do certain things.
The social model helps us recognise barriers that make life harder for disabled people. Removing these barriers creates equality and offers disabled people more independence, choice and control.
So actually the whole concept is wrong.

But those disabled people are not taught that their best treatment is to see no doctors and have no treatment, and they should not accept medication or surgery to ease their pain, improve their mobility or give them back their sight, - that it is their right and privilege to be disabled. that their disability is the norm, and that those who are not disabled are the odd ones out and should be called by a special name to signify their inferiority and insignificance. Oh, and that the non-disabled hate them.

Well said, Elegran.

Not sure the social model for those with disabilities is working well on GN today. The thread relating to children who arent neurotypical is making me want to weep.

Me too Galaxy as someone with a grandchild who is neurodivergent along with other co-morbidities I've had to learn to ignore the tuts and outright condemnation when his behaviour has broken down. As someone constantly wearing ear defenders, and usually a beanie hat it is obvious he has a disability. Some feel able to openly express that people like him shouldn't be in public places. Incidentally, we do tend to pull him out of a venue pretty quickly once behaviour starts to deteriorate, but it's only by taking him to venues and restaurants that he has learned how to behave in those places.

Sorry if my Dyslexia analogy is upsetting people. My daughter is Dyslexic, which maybe made me less guarded than I would normally be about saying anything that might tread on toes. It maybe doesn't work, but my point (maybe not very well made) was that jumping to the 'this is akin to homophobia' response to trans issues is flawed.

Doodledog Is your dyslexia analogy upsetting people? I can't imagine why, it was a very good illustration I thought, showing that help and adjustments are made to overcome the disadvantages of having the condition. Equally that those, the majority, who do not have the condition aren't expected to change their language or behaviours to 'fall in line'.

Sorry doodledog I wasnt referring to you. I was being very naughty and referencing another thread. I work with children with additional needs rosie and am finding it really upsetting so cant imagine what it's like for parents/grandparents. Anyway I am derailing, ignore me!

Ah, I see. Dyslexia is a neurodivergent condition too, so I got my wired crossed.

I also have the most dreadful cold, and am firing on fewer cylinders than usual.

Rosie51
^ Incidentally, we do tend to pull him out of a venue pretty quickly once behaviour starts to deteriorate, but it's only by taking him to venues and restaurants that he has learned how to behave in those places.^
That’s just what we have done with DGS.

Some language and behaviour has been altered, in relation to people with disabilities, but it has never meant over-riding important rights of others.

I think that’s different. Some of the language used to describe people with ‘differences’ of any kind was pretty grim in the 70s (and for years after), but that has changed in line with social attitudes.

I dread to think what terms would have been used to describe transpeople back then, but assume that ‘transwomen’ would be mild by comparison. These changes, whether of the language describing the disabled, transpeople, people of colour or whatever are IMO all to the good. It is the changing of terms like ‘woman’ or ‘mother’ that matter, as they shift the way in which people can discuss things in a fundamental way.

Doodledog - I agree with you!

Has anyone read Ella Minnow Pea, by Mark Dunn?

It is a clever, funny and entertaining book (perfect for a summer book club read) and does not have anything to do with trans issues, so good for a summer holiday too .

The premise is that there is a little country where the people love language, and where one day, the letter Z falls off a statue, which causes the government to ban the use of the letter Z (they see it as 'a sign'). One by one, the letters fall, and one by one they get banned, so the inhabitants of the island have to come up with ever more ingenious ways to communicate. As I say, it's not about trans (or any other) issues; but it demonstrates how difficult life can be when you don't have the words you are used to.

I recommend it.

But we should remember that disability rights were not won by people keeping quiet or a low profile. In the 80's and the 90s disabled people chained themselves to public transport, blocked the tube in London, blocked roads and tipped themselves out of wheelchairs to make it hard for police to arrest them and generally behaved badly. Many condemned them.
They also had some very sarcastic songs about non-disabled people and their attitudes. The didn't say non-disabled people hated them, they said they pitied them which they viewed as much worse.
Ian Stanton a singer and activist had a notice on stage with him. "Piss on Pity"
Disability Rights were won by people who behaved badly.

Yes that's why women need to behave badly. Also if anyone has spent any time in support/education for children with autism, they will know that we have got it badly wrong for children with autism more times than not. It was partly the prevalence of children with autism in the statistics with regard to gender dysphoria that brought me into this issue.

I've had to come on here under another ID as i don't want to get involved in a pile on.

Alas, so much of the mumsnet brigade are probably in here stirring up the same hate which has given MN such an awful name. Transphobia masquerading as feminism is sickening for those older women who fought so hard to get to where we are now.

Whilst some of those sad tropes might work well on the impressionable 18-40 mumsnet lot, some of us have seen this before, when it was homophobia in the 70's and we saw that off with some aplomb then and we'll see transphobia off in the same way.

Rosie51

AussieNanna you refer to the counselling etc required before transition, but seem to fail to appreciate that many, if not most, posters to this site are in the UK so will have concerns how these issues are dealt with in the UK. When anybody can access women's changing rooms ( in small high street shops often communal ie not separate individual rooms) or toilets, sports etc just by 'identifying' as women ( even when sporting a luxurious beard!) this is a concern. Nobody is saying all transwomen as a class pose a threat just that these regulations open the doors wide for malignant misrepresentation at the very least. Isn't it rather telling though that it is always MtF transition that causes problems, never the other way round?
I really think conflating homosexuality with transgender is both insulting and derogatory to homosexuals. They have never attempted to have language definitions changed or compelled speech, both of which are happening under the transgender agenda.

yes I accept that - and thus I have not commented on any direct issues in UK

My comments started with a concern that a dismissal or minimising of gender dysmorphia was then creeping into the thread - not from all posters obviously, but it was creeping in.

since then, as with this post , am mainly replying to comments directed at me.

FarNorth

I was talking about young children transitioning - all accounts I have seen show parents who are blinded by stereotypes .
That's my observation of them and their own descriptions of the situation - not just an assumption of mine.

Check out Susie Green's ted talk about her son, videos of Jazz Jennings, Kai Shapley & his mum Kimberley or Jacob Lemay & her parents.

Even the much acclaimed UK TV drama 'Butterfly' showed parents who couldn't cope with an effeminate boy, as if that was justification for Max deciding he must be trans.

If you AussieNana can find any accounts of trans children which are not based on stereotypes I'd be very interested to see them.

well my own experiecne of someone I know.

His parents were not any more sterotypical with their children than anyone else - probably less so than many people.

and yes I know he is an adult now - but this issue didnt suddenly start when he turned 18

those older women who fought so hard to get to where we are now.
This includes the older women who are now fighting to keep women's rights.

Have you read this thread MiserableGit?
Have you read other GN threads, where you will see the names of those here and will realise that they are all genuine older women.

Instead of talking about 'sad tropes' and 'hate' how about coming up with some sensible comment?

"Aussienana, I wonder why you have chosen to compare trans issues with homosexuality? "

No - that isnt what I did at all.
Please don't read more into my post than there was.

I compared the way mothers were blamed for their children being homosexual to the way there was some blame attached to parents for their children being trans - the it must be the parents following stereotypes and we must investigate for the cause - type comments

That is the ONLY comparison I made between the 2 things.

When did the issue start AussieNana?
When I say young children, I mean children of primary school age or even younger.

There are examples of parents supporting their children’s concerns over possible gender dysphoria, but who want non-invasive (physical or chemical) treatment for their child until the child is old enough to take full responsibility for any drastic or irreversible changes to their bodies.

There are examples of parents who, by their insistence on their child’s gender dysphoria cause more harm than good by going directly for the use of drugs, breast-binding or surgery, whilst the children have no real idea what the outcome will be.
Just read the comments of the children/teens themselves when faced with the reality of the treatment they are asking for and also their accounts of the after effects when the treatment doesn’t solve the problems, simply changes them.
Don’t compare it with homosexuality.

AussieNanna

"Aussienana, I wonder why you have chosen to compare trans issues with homosexuality? "

No - that isnt what I did at all.
Please don't read more into my post than there was.

I compared the way mothers were blamed for their children being homosexual to the way there was some blame attached to parents for their children being trans - the it must be the parents following stereotypes and we must investigate for the cause - type comments

That is the ONLY comparison I made between the 2 things.

Yes, I know you weren’t making a direct comparison between gay people and trans ones, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

But you could just as easily have said that mothers are blamed when their children misbehave, or when they commit crimes. Mothers are blamed for everything.

There is often conflation between sexuality and trans issues on here, with people who are critical of gender accused of homophobia. It’s wearing, but the accusers also bring in racism too - so it’s clear that there is no logic in their viewpoints.

I don’t see dismissal of dysphoria on here. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, or in any way negate the fact that you do see it, but what I see is concern that children are encouraged by one another, by teachers and sometimes by parents to see confusion about sexuality or the way in which’ gender’ is brought into everything nowadays, or just life in general as a situation that needs transitioning to make it better.

MiserableGit

I've had to come on here under another ID as i don't want to get involved in a pile on.

Alas, so much of the mumsnet brigade are probably in here stirring up the same hate which has given MN such an awful name. Transphobia masquerading as feminism is sickening for those older women who fought so hard to get to where we are now.

Whilst some of those sad tropes might work well on the impressionable 18-40 mumsnet lot, some of us have seen this before, when it was homophobia in the 70's and we saw that off with some aplomb then and we'll see transphobia off in the same way.

Biological women wanting to maintain their long held rights doesn't really translate into "hate".

Surely the fact that biological women of all ages are fighting against this, tells you something?

Trying to change biology, and reality, by pretending that biological men, identifying as women, are suddenly a different sex, can never succeed.

Homosexuals took away no one's rights. Their private life, rightly, was something that only affected them.

They weren't trying to cheat at sports, or barge into women's safe spaces, or insist on being included in medical monitoring for things that couldn't possibly affect them, and they didn't pretend to be biological women.

Two different subjects.