The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

I side with freedom of choice for individuals, as long as they are not breaking any recognised law.
It is no business of anyone else what gender I chose to be.

My sex was ascribed at birth but my gender is for me, not other people, to choose,.

Caleo

I side with freedom of choice for individuals, as long as they are not breaking any recognised law.
It is no business of anyone else what gender I chose to be.

My sex was ascribed at birth but my gender is for me, not other people, to choose,.

Yes. Freedom of choice.
You can say you are whatever gender you want to be and if you don’t make it anyone else’s business, you aren’t likely to have problems, although some are trying to affect that with their behaviour.
When freedom of choice clashes with someone else’s rights, should people fight to have those rights overruled?

Oh, for goodness sake!

Non-females advertising products that are needed only by females.

mobile.twitter.com/CrownOnMyFrown/status/1534597927657684994

I agree FarNorth absolutely ludicrous.

FarNorth

Oh, for goodness sake!

Non-females advertising products that are needed only by females.

mobile.twitter.com/CrownOnMyFrown/status/1534597927657684994

It gets ever more bizarre...what, in Heaven's name, are they doing with any sanitary pads they buy?

Quite honestly, I'm long past the time of needing this sort of product, but if I was, I would boycott any make of product that pandered to this nonsense.

Only biological women require sanitary products...there are no ifs, buts and maybe's with it.

I wouldn't mind, but the men so desperate to "be" women would probably run screaming from half of the stuff that being a woman can entail lol

I've seen my husband with a cold, involving lots of moaning and whimpering - if he'd ever had to give birth, it would have been the stuff of nightmares..??

Mollygo

AN they haven’t managed to make confusion between male and female official yet. Asking for a female is specific. Males claiming they are female when a female has been specified is deceitful. Are you OK with allowing deceit as long as it benefits a male?

It would work both ways - men asking for a male attendant only. So it wouldn't just benifit males, could be other way round.

If your objection is to a transitioned person then I think you should specify that - as people do consider themselves to be transitioned to other sex.

I don't see that as deceitful.

Will leave that point there though as it seems to be getting repetitive.

The thing is, though - I could consider myself to be Lady of the Manor, and expect you to curtsey when you talk to me. Would you humour me by doing that? I'm guessing not, and my delusion wouldn't trample on anyone's religious or cultural beliefs.

If someone wants a female attendant, they should have one, and remember that there are men who keep beards as well as penises, the better to rub in their maleness to objectors. Should they have the right to carry out intimate examinations on women who have asked for another women to do it?

Since you seem to want me to repeat something i have already said:
No they shouldn't if people request otherwise. I never said otherwise.

Be specific in your request so that doesn't happen.

Males, even transwomen are not females. If I say I don’t want a trans person, I would immediately be accused of transphobia. Shall I say instead I want to be attended by someone who knows they are biologically female?

I am specific.

If I request a female medic, then I want a biological female medic.

I shouldn't have to clarify it further than that. It's not complicated.

I don't care what people identify as, but I can see no reason why I should have to take part in the delusion.

If I was happy with a TW examining me, I'd be sure to say.

Thanks DL.

AussieNana many thousands, perhaps millions, of women will be unaware that they have to be more specific than asking for a female person.

Transwomen, men, know perfectly well that they are male.
They should not 'consider themselves female' and it should, in my opinion, be a disciplinary matter or even a punishable offence if a transwoman, man, tries to pass himself off as female in any situation where it is important to have an actual female.

I'm going to be completely obvious here, some women CANNOT be specific because they do not have mental capacity or a communication disorder or a massive number of things that makes them unable to specify like the likes of me and you. When making decisions it is best to consider things outside of your own situation. Vulnerable women, especially in care settings need not to be made more vulnerable by these dangerous decisions being made wrt female only personal care

Thankyou Jane for consistently reminding us of this. I cant think of anything crueler than for example telling those who may be struggling with their perception of reality that a man is a woman.

That is an excellent point, Jane, and you're right - it's one that is often forgotten.

Completely right Jane.

And, right on cue, I got an email about this :

Adult Family Care Homes of Maine, USA
"Placement of an applicant/resident in a shared room setting that is separated by sex shall be made based upon the applicant/resident’s gender identity, not their assigned sex at birth. The law does not require people who are transgender to have any particular anatomical or physiological makeup in order to identity [sic] as a particular sex or gender. Transgender women will be respected fully as women and treated the same as other women in the facility, without any inquiry into particular surgeries or medical treatment."

www.womenarehuman.com/landmark-settlement-males-with-trans-identity-may-room-with-women-at-care-facilities/

That was the decision of Maine Human Rights Commission in a case brought by a 79 year old man (transwoman) who wished to share a room with a woman.

America’s position on women’s rights is lurching backwards just now. We really have to stop that from happening here.

Caleo when you say you were ascribed your sex do you think your essential innate biological sex was somehow imposed upon you at birth. Or do you accept your biological sex was immutably determined at the moment of conception. I totally accept your freedom to choose your gender, while exercising my own freedom of thought based on science, my instinctive senses and perception to say a trans woman is just that a trans woman, defiantly not an adult female, not a woman. Because it’s biological sex thats the determinator Not subjective desire or how you feel or dress or what hormones you take or bodily parts are enhanced or mutilated.

Caleo

I side with freedom of choice for individuals, as long as they are not breaking any recognised law.
It is no business of anyone else what gender I chose to be.

My sex was ascribed at birth but my gender is for me, not other people, to choose,.

Your sex was observed at birth, just as everyone's else's is.

Choice of gender is fine, but the rest of us also have the choice not to have our long held rights shoved aside, for a very small minority to be given all of what they want.

The rights of biological women are just as important as those of biological men, identifying as female.

It is, actually, against the law, to cause a breach of the peace, and threaten and intimidate women, just trying to hold a peaceful meeting. As has happened with a lot of these protests.

I dont really understand why anyone would care what gender someone is as long as gender isnt used in public policy but rather sex is. Obviously as a feminist I would critique gender as a concept, e.g that stereotypes are damaging to men and women but I wouldnt care less about an individuals gender.

Exactly Galaxy.

During the Scottish Parliament debate on Johann Lamont's amendment to the Forensic Medical Services Bill which would give survivors of sexual violence the right to request a medical examiner of the same sex as themself, rather than the same gender, Monica Lennon MSP said "It's as if some people want to exclude transwomen from doing this work."

Yes, we did at least want to try to make sure that a woman who has been sexually assaulted, and who requests a female medical examiner, will not be presented with a male person claiming to be female.

I was completely stunned that anyone would think that a transwoman (man) should have the right to override the clearly stated wish of a woman who has suffered sexual assault and who is undergoing medical examination shortly afterwards.

Despite responding negatively to concerned constituents, a sizeable majority of MSPs did clearly realise the strength of public feeling on this and voted in favour of the amendment to use the word 'sex' rather than 'gender'.

Well said, Stormystar

The very idea of 'ascribing' a 'gender' to a baby is idiotic. People may choose to live by norms which have been ascribed to the male or female sex. They may choose to refer to those as gender if they wish, and can say that they are 'living as' a member of the opposite sex if they like. I honestly wish them well - it won't always be easy.

The reality, however, is that however much they conform to so-called 'gender norms' that are, in our culture at this time, more usual for the opposite sex, they are still what their gametes dictate, and they would get a lot more support if they recognised that, and on the rare occasions where it matters that women and men are segregated they respected the rights of those who wish to to stick to the biological facts, and did the decent thing.

Very well said Stormystar and Doodledog.