The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

I don't know how anyone can think that this is acceptable.

By all means have groups for transwomen who have been victims of sexual violence, but if there is any area where the sexes should be separate, this is surely it?

Tom Daley, the Olympic swimmer, seems a bit confused over comparisons around being gay, and TW's competing against women:

"Tom Daley has slammed the ban on transgender swimmers from elite female competitions. Fina, swimming ’s world governing body, which also regulates diving, voted in favour of the ruling that prevents transgender athletes from competing at this level if they have gone through any part of the process of male puberty.

Speaking at the British LGBT Awards, Daley, 28, said: “I was furious. You know, like most queer people, anyone that’s told that they can’t compete or can’t do something they love just because of who they are, it’s not on. It’s something I feel really strongly about. Giving trans people the chance to share their side.”

He added: “It’s really, really difficult to figure out who you are when the public are watching and everybody is looking at you. It was a very stressful way to figure out who I am, honestly. But when you figure out who you are and you get to be comfortable with that, that’s when you start to move forward, and you can openly and outwardly and unapologetically do it, then you can really truly be free.”

www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/tom-daley-furious-transgender-ban-27335100

Yeah, but it's ok for women not to be able to win in Sport 'just because of who they are', which means that they can't realistically hope to win against men?

Pillock. He was a good ambassador for the gay community, too, but has made a fool of himself with this one.

Yes, as someone pointed out, if Mike Tyson identified as disabled, would it be fair for him to fight someone with artificial limbs or a wheelchair?

Being gay doesn't affect sporting prowess or ability, but a biological man, competing against a biological woman, is just cheating.?

Slightly off topic following the ruling on abortion in USA it has been reported that women are deleting apps they have been using to track their health including their periods for fear that their data may be collected and used to determine possible pregnancy /abortions. What disturbed me was the wording in the article referred to women and people with uteruses were cancelling the app.

That's horrible on every level, isn't it?

What have we come to?

I wouldn’t deny any transgender swimmers or boxers or cyclists or any other physical sport the right to compete with other transgender swimmers or boxers or cyclists or Weightlifters. I equally wouldn’t deny any transgender person the right to compete in competition with people of the same biological sex that they are. Why don’t they do that? Because there’s no guarantee they’d win.
It’s cheating! I’m surprised at Tom Daley, or maybe not. Gay or not he’s a male and evidently wants males to succeed by fair means or foul. .

Tom Daley has nothing to lose by it. As a man, he will never have to compete against someone of a "physically stronger" sex.?

Sharron Davies understood the issues, and has long spoken out against TW being able to compete against women in swimming.

Yes, as someone pointed out, if Mike Tyson identified as disabled, would it be fair for him to fight someone with artificial limbs or a wheelchair?

That wins post of the day for me. Brilliantly illustrated.

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. The loss of freedom of speech...

Oh, come on.

Nothing in your post comes close to Bindel being 'abused, screamed at and having placards thrust in her face. The TW mob were out in force, and she was "invited" to kiss their "man-boobs" and told things she could do with their "trans d*cks"', does it?

Free speech does not mean freedom from disagreement, but it should mean freedom from threats and abuse, and from being cancelled, which happened to Bindel in Nottingham.

volver

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. ^The loss of freedom of speech...^

Twitter is a site that is constantly full of abuse and insults, flying in all directions - ghastly place.

He might have been insulted, but I bet he hadn't been cancelled yet, by a screaming mob...?

Unlike Rowling, Bindel et al.

I think Tom Daly often behaves in a misogynistic way. He has utter disregard for women in many of the statements he makes. I am utterly opposed to commercial surrogacy and have serious concerns about other forms of surrogacy.

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it?

They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

There are lots of things I feel strongly about. And there are extreme people at the fringes of the causes I feel strongly about that behave like savages and who don't help the cause at all. They embarrass me and I think they cheapen debate. But I've never felt the need to call them c*** and use slurs on them relating to their sexuality.

For what its worth, I probably disagree with Daley on this. But you can never have a serious conversation about any of this stuff with it descending into a shouting match. What have we come to, indeed.

I suspect that Tom Daley is influenced by the attitudes promoted by Stonewall, an organisation originally set up to campaign for gay men and lesbians, but now involved in promoting trans rights, which is a completely separate issue.

I suspect he just hasnt considered womens rights in his statement. He wont be the first or the last person to do that.
Just as an aside Simon Fanshawe has been doggedly supporting women for a long time now, I think many who originally supported Stonewall are quite split on this issue.

Yes, I think that too Varian
I used to really love Tom Daley, going back to when he was a young lad.
Simon Fanshawe has turned his back on Stonewall

Oh! What very similar posts!
Great minds eh Galaxy? ?

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it? They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

Er no ?. Remind me - who was it who brought in the fact that Daley has had people call him names? Why was that brought up, if not to compare it to the abuse against Bindel et al in a 'whatabout' manner?

Quite spooky fanny. I was reading Simon Fanshawes views today so it reminded me of the work he is doing.

Yes, a whatabout manner if you like

Both sides insult each other and call each other names. Both sides behave like extremists. And until that stops, we'll be no further forward. But I expect someone will come along and tell me that everything's awful and I don't know how bad things are and haven't I read about the period fetishists.

Heigh ho.

No I suspect people will just carry on talking about it.

volver

Oh, OK. So that's the way this debate is run is it?

They call us names so we can call them names too. Anybody who disagrees with me is fair game for abuse.

There are lots of things I feel strongly about. And there are extreme people at the fringes of the causes I feel strongly about that behave like savages and who don't help the cause at all. They embarrass me and I think they cheapen debate. But I've never felt the need to call them c*** and use slurs on them relating to their sexuality.

For what its worth, I probably disagree with Daley on this. But you can never have a serious conversation about any of this stuff with it descending into a shouting match. What have we come to, indeed.

I said that Twitter was an awful place, always full of abuse and insults, about any subject.

Of course, abuse, threats, insults etc. aren't the right way to debate anything - but I never see any of that on any of these GN threads anyway.

Cancelling people, and often trying to trash their careers, isn't good either.

I've never seen a thread on here where being gay is denigrated.

You say there is a row on Twitter. I don't read it, so I can't really comment on what they do on there.

volver

On Twitter this morning, Tom Daley is being called a parasite, misogynist, contemptuous of women, "womb renter", having a hissy fit and being told to go and knit himself a blanket and stay in his own lane.

What's in the title of this thread again? Oh yes. ^The loss of freedom of speech...^

Tom Daley hasn’t lost freedom of speech, even on Twitter if that’s what you base your decisions on.
I might not like the terms that have been used, any more than I like the terms used about women, but allowing TERFS freedom of speech and the right to use those terms is an ongoing issue.
He’s been allowed the freedom to endorse his approval of cheating and others have been allowed to express their feelings about his endorsement. Why is one right and the other wrong?
If he’s being accused of all the things you quote from Twitter, he’s at liberty to refute those accusations.
Now females . . . They are being denied the freedom to use terms to which they are entitled-mother, breast feeding, woman meaning only AHF.

Yes, there are zealots on both sides, but it is the TRAs who are resorting to violence and death threats out in the big wide world. Are you suggesting that gender critical posters on here are comparable with them?

Nobody on here is shouting or casting slurs on people based on their sexuality. It's hardly fair to compare threads on here to Twitter, if that's what you are doing.

It's difficult to tell from the tone of your posts (*volver*) whether they are general comments on the state of the 'debate' (where debate is allowed), or about threads on Gransnet, which makes it difficult to respond.